Crumbles as it gets smaller!

[Big J]

Hello fellow soapers,

I make a cp soap using olive oil, coconut oil, avocado oil, castor oil. All is well, however I notice that towards the end of its use, and as it gets smaller, it seems to crumble into smaller pieces! I’be been making soap using the same recipe for about 4 years. This just seemed to appear the last year or so? Any insight as to why? Or is this suspected? P.S.. I general make this for my family only!
SH 156g
distilled water 367g
O.O 733g
coconut oil 282g
avacado oil 85g
castor oil 28g

 

[Babyshoes]

Any changes to brands of oils or other ingredients? Moved somewhere with different water perhaps?

 

[TheGecko]

I make a cp soap using olive oil, coconut oil, avocado oil, castor oil. All is well, however I notice that towards the end of its use, and as it gets smaller, it seems to crumble into smaller pieces! I’be been making soap using the same recipe for about 4 years. This just seemed to appear the last year or so? Any insight as to why? Or is this suspected? P.S.. I general make this for my family only!

How old are your oils? Avocado Oil - 1 year, Castor- 2 years, Coconut Oil - 18 months, Olive Oil - 2 years. Since I'm not producing a whole lot of soap right now, I'm trying to rotate every 6 months.

Have you changed brands? You'd think that 100% whatever would be the same across the board, but unfortunately it's not. Different suppliers may use different processes or the raw ingredients may have come from a different place. And speaking of raw ingredients, environmental changes can affect the quality of the ingredients. A dry season, a wet season.

 

[Arimara]

What is SH?

 

[AliOop]

What is SH?

I had to think about it too - sodium hydroxide.

 

[DeeAnna]

I had to think about it too - sodium hydroxide.

Oh. That's a new one! Thanks for interpreting this, Ali.

@Big J -- Also consider any changes in how the soap is used -- anything that would affect how well the soap can dry between uses.

If the soap retains more water than usual on the average, this can weaken the soap structure. I'm not saying the soap has to be soppy wet, just to be clear. Just not able to dry as thoroughly as when this wasn't a problem. Maybe the soap dish has changed or people are taking showers more often or something like that.

 

[Arimara]

I had to think about it too - sodium hydroxide.

Ah, Thanks. I know this might be a pain but that is the one thing I'd probably demand be written out with it's chemical elements. I forgot what many of them are but I remember some of the less complicated ones.

I hate getting confused.

 

[Big J]

How old are your oils? Avocado Oil - 1 year, Castor- 2 years, Coconut Oil - 18 months, Olive Oil - 2 years. Since I'm not producing a whole lot of soap right now, I'm trying to rotate every 6 months.

Have you changed brands? You'd think that 100% whatever would be the same across the board, but unfortunately it's not. Different suppliers may use different processes or the raw ingredients may have come from a different place. And speaking of raw ingredients, environmental changes can affect the quality of the ingredients. A dry season, a wet season.

All the oils were bought together and were only a couple weeks old. I am thinking that I keep the bar “dry” in it dish, meaning I drain all water from dish after use? I’m gonna try that first. Sorry about SH! was trying to save some time!! Lol

 

[DeeAnna]

Most of us use the chemical shorthand NaOH. Na = sodium. OH = hydroxide.

I'm not saying I know this to be true about your soap, but here's my thinking behind my suggestion -- A bar of soap isn't just one homogeneous thing -- various types of soap molecules exist within any bar of soap. These molecules not only vary, but they are arranged in various kinds of crystalline structures within the bar.

Problems with cracking and mushing and crumbling can result when certain portions of the soap are less structurally sound than others. If these weaker areas contain a higher water content than is ideal, they can become softer and more mechanically fragile. Think of a cheap paper towel -- it's fairly strong when dry but shreds into bits when wet. As the soap bar gets thinner from use, these weaker areas can crack or crumble or disintegrate into mush.

You can create these variations within the bar by the way you make the soap --

For example, the "glycerin rivers" that sometimes happen in soap is a bold visual example of the variations that can occur within soap. The more translucent areas are higher in oleic soap which is more water soluble. The more opaque areas are higher in stearic and palmitic soap which is less water soluble. Can you see how these differences might affect the durability of the soap if the conditions are right?

As another example, I suspect when soap batter is poured into the mold at a thin emulsion, the finished soap can be more variable in its structure than when the soap batter is poured at an obvious, thick trace.

I'm not saying these examples WILL cause problems in how the soap performs, just that they can under the right conditions.

In your case, something within the soap structure is different now than in your earlier batches. Whatever this issue is, it's making the bar less durable at the end of its life. I'm not sure what the particular difference is, but maybe you'll be able to come up with some ideas now.

 

[Big J]

Most of us use the chemical shorthand NaOH. Na = sodium. OH = hydroxide.

I'm not saying I know this to be true about your soap, but here's my thinking behind my suggestion -- A bar of soap isn't just one homogeneous thing -- various types of soap molecules exist within any bar of soap. These molecules not only vary, but they are arranged in various kinds of crystalline structures within the bar.

Problems with cracking and mushing and crumbling can result when certain portions of the soap are less structurally sound than others. If these weaker areas contain a higher water content than is ideal, they can become softer and more mechanically fragile. Think of a cheap paper towel -- it's fairly strong when dry but shreds into bits when wet. As the soap bar gets thinner from use, these weaker areas can crack or crumble or disintegrate into mush.

You can create these variations within the bar by the way you make the soap --

For example, the "glycerin rivers" that sometimes happen in soap is a bold visual example of the variations that can occur within soap. The more translucent areas are higher in oleic soap which is more water soluble. The more opaque areas are higher in stearic and palmitic soap which is less water soluble. Can you see how these differences might affect the durability of the soap if the conditions are right?

As another example, I suspect when soap batter is poured into the mold at a thin emulsion, the finished soap can be more variable in its structure than when the soap batter is poured at an obvious, thick trace.

I'm not saying these examples WILL cause problems in how the soap performs, just that they can under the right conditions.

In your case, something within the soap structure is different now than in your earlier batches. Whatever this issue is, it's making the bar less durable at the end of its life. I'm not sure what the particular difference is, but maybe you'll be able to come up with some ideas now.

Can’t thank you enough for the very insightful information. I will take this information and rethink how I do my pour and how I’d mix my oils, even the temperature at which I work with. I generally premake my lye solution and set it aside till room temperature, even my oils are room temp. I always use a coconut oil that melts at 76 degrees. I’ve also switch my soap making to winter instead of warmer months! Lots and lots to consider. Thanks much for your insight! Including my flub of “SH”! Lol

 

[Big J]

What is SH?

Sorry about that. I’m an amateur!! Lol

 

[DeeAnna]

I'd also say from looking at your recipe, that this formulation has very low amounts of palmitic and stearic acids. These acids are the ones that give soap a strong mechanical structure and they also make soap that is relatively insoluble. So they make your soap physically harder AND last longer. Your coconut oil adds hardness, that's true, but the CO, olive, avocado, and castor all make soap that's highly water soluble.

 

[Becky1024]

Big J your question came at the right time for me. I just had a bar do something similar to me. It's made of olive oil, shea butter, coconut oil and castor oil with peppermint EO and dark red Brazilian clay. The bar is about 2 years old. After using the bar for around a month (its by the bathroom sink so maybe half of the bar was used), a crack started to form in the middle. I could watch it growing and after a couple of days it broke in two. Now there are some little cracks forming off of where the big one was. I had a customer complain about a soap crumbling at Christmas time too and its probably the same thing. I don't have an answer for you but I think DeAnna is on to something about the mechanical structure of the bar.

 

[Arimara]

Sorry about that. I’m an amateur!! Lol

Don't worry 'bout it.

 

[Big J]

I'd also say from looking at your recipe, that this formulation has very low amounts of palmitic and stearic acids. These acids are the ones that give soap a strong mechanical structure and they also make soap that is relatively insoluble. So they make your soap physically harder AND last longer. Your coconut oil adds hardness, that's true, but the CO, olive, avocado, and castor all make soap that's highly water soluble.

Thanks for the feedback! Should I adjust my recipe? Like backoff on the olive oil and slightly increase the coconut oil? Thanks.

 

[DeeAnna]

I was gently trying to suggest you might want to add fats higher in palmitic and stearic, not just shift the proportions around of what you're already using.

Speaking for myself, I don't know that I would increase the coconut oil unless you want the soap to be more cleansing. That wouldn't be my preference, especially in winter in the upper Midwest, but everyone's skin is different.

 

[Big J]

I was gently trying to suggest you might want to add fats higher in palmitic and stearic, not just shift the proportions around of what you're already using.

Speaking for myself, I don't know that I would increase the coconut oil unless you want the soap to be more cleansing. That wouldn't be my preference, especially in winter in the upper Midwest, but everyone's skin is different.

Got it!! Thanks again for the insight...... much appreciated

 

[Becky1024]

Hello fellow soapers,

I make a cp soap using olive oil, coconut oil, avocado oil, castor oil. All is well, however I notice that towards the end of its use, and as it gets smaller, it seems to crumble into smaller pieces! I’be been making soap using the same recipe for about 4 years. This just seemed to appear the last year or so? Any insight as to why? Or is this suspected? P.S.. I general make this for my family only!
SH 156g
distilled water 367g
O.O 733g
coconut oil 282g
avacado oil 85g
castor oil 28g

Big J did your soap seize or come to trace very quickly? I suspect that could compromise the structural integrity of the soap.

 

[Big J]

Big J did your soap seize or come to trace very quickly? I suspect that could compromise the structural integrity of the soap.

It did not trace quickly at all, I generally get a nice even trace, then simply pou into the mould. Thats a great thought! Thanks