Creating a recipe for use in really hard water?

[ShannonT]

Been tasked recently by my biggest soap buyer friend to make a soap for his mom that will lather nicely in her hard water town in lower Michigan. We have hard-ish water here in Cleveland and my soaps lather great here.

Should I try tweaking my standard recipe? Start from scratch?

Here's my standard:
palm 35%
coconut 25%
olive oil pomace 25%
sunflower 10%
castor 5%

Which gives a 24 for bubbly on soapcalc, and 13% and 6% for lauric and myristic fatty acids. Conditioning is 52.

Less olive oil? sub babassu or palm kernel?

Here's my from scratch:

Coconut Oil 30%
Babassu Oil 25%
Palm Kernel Oil Flakes, hydrogenated 20%
Apricot Kernal Oil 10%
Almond Oil, sweet 10%
Castor Oil 5.000

Bubbly comes in at 55, 37% and 14% for lauric and myristic. Conditioning at 29. Too drying? Bubbly enough?

Is this new recipe going to just harden in the pot immediately?



I superfat at 5% as a rule. Skip that?

 

[lsg]

I would superfat at least at 8% or maybe 10% with this recipe. What is the cleansing number, I imagine pretty high. If you are not adverse to using animal fats, lard produces a good creamy lather.

 

[FlybyStardancer]

Do you have citric acid? When combined with lye it forms sodium citrate, which is a chelating agent that can help with hard water. I've been adding that to my soaps for my hard water. I use 5g of citric acid (and an extra 3g of lye to balance it) for 500-600g oils (just over 1lb).

Sugar also boosts bubbles.

 

[Cutter]

Could you clarify that please, Star. So after you calculate your lye/water for your recipe you add 5g of citric acid an additional 3g of lye per 500g of oil? And is this added to your lye solution? Doesn't that change your overall calculation?

Thanks

 

[ShannonT]

I would superfat at least at 8% or maybe 10% with this recipe. What is the cleansing number, I imagine pretty high. If you are not adverse to using animal fats, lard produces a good creamy lather.

Yep, a 51.

I'm not opposed to animal fats, but I don't know about my friend's mom. My usual blend does produce a creamy lather, but she's looking for bubbles, like a liquid synthetic.

And I've got lots of different "fancy" veg oils sitting around here waiting for a project.

 

[songwind]

Do you have citric acid? When combined with lye it forms sodium citrate, which is a chelating agent that can help with hard water. I've been adding that to my soaps for my hard water. I use 5g of citric acid (and an extra 3g of lye to balance it) for 500-600g oils (just over 1lb).

Sugar also boosts bubbles.

That's an excellent idea!

Have you considered reacting the citric acid and lye in a separate vessel and adding that solution instead of putting the citric acid into the soap?

 

[FlybyStardancer]

I'll just add the 3g to whatever amount of lye Soapcalc tells me, and then add the citric acid to the lye water after the lye is dissolved. It doesn't throw off the recipe because the citric acid neutralizes the extra lye, leaving you with the amount needed to give you the superfat you calculated for when you ran the recipe through the soap calculator.

Please don't just take my word for it, do some research on your own! (It can be a bit hard to weed through the replies... A lot of them will be for liquid soap because of the way it's often formulated with too much lye, and then the lye is neutralized with a choice of acids.)

 

[FlybyStardancer]

That's an excellent idea!

Have you considered reacting the citric acid and lye in a separate vessel and adding that solution instead of putting the citric acid into the soap?

What do you mean? Like doing a rinse with them after using the soap? I'd think that would be a pain to remember to do. (I'm trying to use vinegar rinses for my hair in the shower and I often forget to grab the rinse to do it, the fewer steps in-use for me, the better!)

 

[DeeAnna]

Shannon -- I wouldn't be tweaking my tried 'n true recipe unless I KNEW there was a problem with the recipe. Is there a specific reason why you think your current recipe will not work for Friend's Mom? Why not first send a sample of your current recipe to FM and see what FM thinks? Or give a sample to your friend to try out when visiting Mom?

 

[ShannonT]

Shannon -- I wouldn't be tweaking my tried 'n true recipe unless I KNEW there was a problem with the recipe. Is there a specific reason why you think your current recipe will not work for Friend's Mom? Why not first send a sample of your current recipe to FM and see what FM thinks? Or give a sample to your friend to try out when visiting Mom?

She's been using my soap for awhile, and yes, I am loathe to change it. But, I do have a few other recipes I made that I like, none are any bubblier, just different (like a palm, coconut, shea, and sweet almond, just for fun).

I may just try a tweak (with citric acid) and the new recipe in 1 lb batches. But, she's picky and also wants them scentless and colorless...

He lives here for a reason. LOL

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

I live in an area with extremely hard water and my bubble numbers range from 19-28 and they bubble/lather very well. Is she not satisfied with the soaps that she has tried?

 

[songwind]

What do you mean? Like doing a rinse with them after using the soap? I'd think that would be a pain to remember to do. (I'm trying to use vinegar rinses for my hair in the shower and I often forget to grab the rinse to do it, the fewer steps in-use for me, the better!)

No, I meant in the soap-making process. I was thinking that rather than putting the unreacted citric acid into the soap batter, wreaking havoc on the saponification, maybe it would be better to mix the citric acid and "extra" lye by themselves, resulting in a solution of water and sodium citrate, and add that to your soap batter.

 

[shunt2011]

My parent's live in Upper Lower Michigan and have very hard water as well but we have no problems with my soaps not performing well. They don't use anything but my soaps now. Pretty basic recipes OO, PO, CO, PKO, Butter & Castor with milk of some kind.

 

[FlybyStardancer]

No, I meant in the soap-making process. I was thinking that rather than putting the unreacted citric acid into the soap batter, wreaking havoc on the saponification, maybe it would be better to mix the citric acid and "extra" lye by themselves, resulting in a solution of water and sodium citrate, and add that to your soap batter.

Ah, see, I'm not adding unreacted citric acid to the soap batter, I'm adding it to the lye water before the lye water is added to the oils. Mixing the citric acid with its lye separately sounds like a step that would be fiddly at best, especially with how little of each is used.

 

[songwind]

That's effectively the same thing, really. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[ShannonT]

I live in an area with extremely hard water and my bubble numbers range from 19-28 and they bubble/lather very well. Is she not satisfied with the soaps that she has tried?

My parent's live in Upper Lower Michigan and have very hard water as well but we have no problems with my soaps not performing well. They don't use anything but my soaps now. Pretty basic recipes OO, PO, CO, PKO, Butter & Castor with milk of some kind.

Mine do here too, and those are my bubble number ranges too. We have pretty hard water here that I know of, and I never have any trouble getting bubbly lather. Thanks for confirming that I'm not nuts.

I think she wants like big, liquid soap kind of lather.

I'm guessing I can go all advanced and do some sort of hot process with NaOH and KOH, but I can't help but feel annoyed with this project. I don't mind special requests for scents and colors and such for full loaves, or lotions, but a new soap formulation is something I really don't have the time or desire to do.

Our friend buys CP and handmade soaps everywhere he goes looking for something to make her happy. Everyone else (with the exception of my extreme-couponing SILs) love my soaps.

Thanks everyone!