CP Soap Curing time Speed up Possible??

[dixiedragon]

I didn't know they got that warm! Interesting!

 

[cmzaha]

My dehydrator is an Excalibur I do not remember how warm or cool some of the less expensive dehydrators get

 

[Lin19687]

I have a Cheap round one for Jerky, it gets hot. Not ripping hot but hot.
i wouldn't waste my dehydrator for soap, jerky is so much more tastier

Jealous @cmzaha that is a Very Nice machine !

 

[dixiedragon]

So I wonder, how does (say) Dial do it? While I don't think Dial is nearly as good as my soap, it doesn't give my hands the same feel as new-uncured soap does. It's drying but not irritating. So is Dial curing soap for 4+ weeks in ginormous warehouses?

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I think it definitely IS possible to speed up cure; it's just that the process isn't possible for us handmade artisans. The makers of Ivory and Dial aren't maintaining massive warehouses of curing soap bars, and they're ready to use immediately so they MUST be using something to accelerate the cure.

But they're cooking soap and extruding it, milling it a few times, probably exposing it to CO2 and controlled humidity/temps of precise calibration, then making bar shapes via hydraulic press and large pressure.

Traditional methods have no way to emulate that. But as I said in another thread recently, there is no real reason to speed cure. Just make soap more often and build a stock so you always have properly aged soap to use.

 

[DeeAnna]

What BG said ^^^

Commercial soap is chipped or flaked into small pieces, vacuum dried to the desired water content, and then kneaded and mixed until it has the desired structure. It can be milled to compact it and further develop the desired structure before being pressed into bars, but most is just extruded or pressed into the desired bar shape straight off the mixer.

(FWIW, hand crafted soap makers often confuse milling with rebatching, but they are not at all the same thing.)

Other aspects of commercial soap is that a lot of it has very low to no superfat nor glycerin and many brands also have syndets blended in. These also affect the characteristics of the soap.

 

[Dean]

So I wonder, how does (say) Dial do it? While I don't think Dial is nearly as good as my soap, it doesn't give my hands the same feel as new-uncured soap does. It's drying but not irritating. So is Dial curing soap for 4+ weeks in ginormous warehouses?

I was researching commercial soap yesterday. Apparently most soap is made in Asia in the form of noodles and then sold to soap manufactures all over the world that mix in fragrance, color and whatever additives, compress, extrude, cut and stamp it into bars. Interestingly the vegetable based noodle is usually just saponified coconut/palm 20/80. Apparently the "crystalline" aspect of curing isn't an issue because by the time the product makes it to the consumer, enough time has passed, especially if you consider shipping and storing of the noodles prior to processing into bars.

I requested a tour of local natural soap manufacturer's factory and was told they don't offer tours. I bet anything the soap is made from Asian noodles...and not the delicious kind.

 

[amd]

I just Googled the ingredients for Dial. I noticed they used "Coconut Acid* · Palm Acid* · Palm Kernel Acid* · Tallow Acid* *contains one or more of these". I believe the use of acids would saponify quicker, but because they don't have triglycerides they wouldn't produce glycerin. Here is where I enter a bit of speculation... the lack of glycerin (or reduced glycerin because they do still use other oils), would possibly allow crystal structure to reassemble faster after the milling/extruding/pressing... ? Again, total speculation on my part.

 

[DeeAnna]

The crystal structure is determined by the milling/extruding/pressing. That's one of the main points of all that manipulation.

 

[Dean]

The crystal structure is determined by the milling/extruding/pressing. That's one of the main points of all that manipulation.

Interesting. Is that why some soap is "triple-milled"?

 

[dixiedragon]

Traditional methods have no way to emulate that. But as I said in another thread recently, there is no real reason to speed cure. Just make soap more often and build a stock so you always have properly aged soap to use.

Make more soap is the answer to most problems, isn't it?

So the milling extruding process speeds up the crystallization? We're guessing?

I requested a tour of local natural soap manufacturer's factory and was told they don't offer tours. I bet anything the soap is made from Asian noodles...and not the delicious kind.

To be fair, they may not be allowed to have tours b/c of insurance. The Golden Flake potato chip company in my area used to do all kinds of field trips, tours, etc. It was one of the most fun field trips we did during school - lots of samples! But they had to discontinue it for liability purposes.

 

[DeeAnna]

Interesting. Is that why some soap is "triple-milled"?

Milling happens when soap is rolled between a pair of chilled steel or stone rollers. If you've seen clothes go through the wringer of an old washing machine or if you've used a pasta machine to roll out noodle dough thinner and thinner ... that's milling.

Milling compresses the soap making it denser and longer lasting. Milling is also used to mix scent and color into soap. Because the soap is kept cool and dry during milling (compare that to rebatching!), this is a good way to preserve the aroma of expensive fragrances and delicate color. Everyday soap is not usually milled.

Triple milled means the soap has gone through a machine that has 3 sets of chilled steel or stone rollers. Or gone through one set of rollers a total of 3 times.

So the milling extruding process speeds up the crystallization? We're guessing?

Yes, the drying, mixing, and other manipulation of the soap alters the crystal structure of the soap. That's not a guess -- soap chemists actually measure the different types of crystal structures, know the properties created by the different types, and do their best to tailor the soap production process to make the kind of product they want.

The resulting crystal structure in commercial soap is not necessarily the same as what we get. For example -- Have you ever used a bar of commercial soap and had it crack (usually) on the short ends of the bar? That's related to the specific crystal structures within that bar. With handcrafted soap, that kind of cracking seldom happens, or if it does, the cracks occur pretty much randomly.

 

[Dean]

To be fair, they may not be allowed to have tours b/c of insurance. The Golden Flake potato chip company in my area used to do all kinds of field trips, tours, etc. It was one of the most fun field trips we did during school - lots of samples! But they had to discontinue it for liability purposes.

I originally thought they didn't do tours because of the lye danger but now I'm pretty sure there is no lye on site due to the industry standard of using noodles. Agree about liability though. Having the public in a manufacturing area of any kind is a huge liability issue. Toured Ben and Jerry's last year. The public is kept completely separate from the manufacturing. Basically we just saw the factory from a balcony and then ate a sample. Kinda boring.

...chemists actually measure the different types of crystal structures, know the properties created by the different types, and do their best to tailor the soap production process to make the kind of product they want...

Interesting. I wondered if there is a way to test crystallization. So apparently there is...if you're a chemist. It be awesome if someone could build a calculator that estimates when the crystallizing is complete based on fatty acids, water amount, area/season (humidity), etc.

 

[Sahil Doshi]

That means that probably not with a dehydrator, but something that can speeden up the evaporation process may help with the curing?

 

[jcandleattic]

That means that probably not with a dehydrator, but something that can speeden up the evaporation process may help with the curing?

No, that's a common but false assumption. All evaporation does is just that, evaporate the liquids. Curing is a chemical change within the soap structure itself, and nothing but time can make that happen.

 

[DCM5150]

This was actually my mistake. What I meant was an oven.



In case the temperature reduces, it makes the pH increase. Also, in case of pure water, the pH recorded at 0C was 6.14 and the pH recorded at 100C was 7.47

I think you got the temp/pH backwards. pH of water at 100C should be 6.14 and 7.47 @0C.

And to be clear, (pure) water is still neutral at a pH of 6.14 and 7.47 at those temps. Changing the pH by changing temperature doesn't affect how basic the soap is. When we talk about pH=7 as neutral, that is assuming 25C (77F) which is considered "room temp" or standard temp in many sciences

 

[Relle]

I think you got the temp/pH backwards. pH of water at 100C should be 6.14 and 7.47 @0C.

And to be clear, (pure) water is still neutral at a pH of 6.14 and 7.47 at those temps. Changing the pH by changing temperature doesn't affect how basic the soap is. When we talk about pH=7 as neutral, that is assuming 25C (77F) which is considered "room temp" or standard temp in many sciences

FYI, this thread is over 4yrs old, and the person you quoted hasn't been in here since then, so is not likely to see your post.

 

[Steve85569]

Soap and wine finish their respected chemical reactions fairly quickly.
Both are better aged properly.
While their are some methods for speeding both in my humble opinion they do not produce a product with the same character and the traditional hand crafting methods. That is the whole point of small wineries and home crafted soaps is it not?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I once made a CP soap that needed to be shipped at the end of the week. I soaped one day, cut the next, oven rebatched it the next day. Did that one more time... double-rebatched soap. Turned out quite nice and ready to use by the time it reached its destination the next week.

 

[DCM5150]

FYI, this thread is over 4yrs old, and the person you quoted hasn't been in here since then, so is not likely to see your post.

I saw that and then realized I was reading the thread so others might be looking here too, so I posted anyway.