Contemplating soy wax

[SoapSisters]

Inspired by @KiwiMoose and @Mobjack Bay, I'm considering soy wax for my CP soap. I wondering what qualities it brings to soap, beyond being affordable and vegan. Lather? Skin feel? Hardness? Something else?

I found a local supplier of soy wax, but they sell a kilo of soy wax and a kilo of shea butter at the same price. So I guess I'm wondering if I should try soy wax even if it isn't so affordable.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Hiya. I use it for the following reasons: it's vegan, it's cheaper than cocoa butter and shea butter (although I still use 10% shea butter in addition to soy wax), it provides hardness and longevity (more stearic), and it also contributes to a more dense lather (not a light fluffy lather). The main two reasons for me were as an alternative to animal fat, and a lot cheaper than butters.

 

[Carly B]

Does it matter the type of soy wax? I'm assuming it's the same stuff those of us who also make soy candles use, right?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Does it matter the type of soy wax? I'm assuming it's the same stuff those of us who also make soy candles use, right?

Yes but no. I Use Golden Wax 415 as it has no other additives. It also has a lower melting point that the others. there is apparently a EuroSoy equivalent.

 

[SeaSuds]

Yes, Eurosoy 800 is available from here: https://www.livemoor.co.uk/products/eurosoy-800-top-quality-european-soy-wax?variant=20496664002648
It's grown in Europe and is non gmo. It's a lovely product and has no additives. It makes a nice creamy lather and if you add a little something nice as a water replacement (I use aloe vera juice) then the lather is plentiful. I also add a little Koh to fluff it up.
NatureWax C3 is also a good one for soap .

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’m in the US, so I’m using GW 415 as the best option available. It adds hardness and behaves very well in my recipes. By my calculations, which are here, it has 44% stearic and palmitic and 55% oleic-like fatty acids (oleic + the trans fats). I‘m using an NaOH sap of .144 and a lowish superfat (2-3%, but uncorrected for lye purity). My first runs were 20% GW 415 with 20-30% RBO (adds some stearic + palmitic), 20% coconut oil, 10% Shea (a bit more s + p) and the rest as high oleic oils. That recipe gives me a reasonably hard, but gentle soap that makes great bubbles without adding castor oil. I use citric acid, which may be helping with the bubbles, but I rarely add sugar. I was completely surprised by the bubbles the first time I used one of my soaps. It was making big crazy bubble after only a few days. If anything, I think my soy based soaps settle down a bit with time and start to make a lather than is a bit creamier, especially if I add a bit less water. Although some might think 20% CO is high, I don’t find it drying at all when the linoleic + linolenic percentages are 15% of FAs, which is what I get with RBO at 30% of oils. I initially obsessed a bit about soaping at 125F, but my recipe behaves at that temperature. I also love that GW 415 melts completely clear after a very short amount of time at 125-130F, which is in contrast to my experiences with lard and tallow.

On the downside, I struggled a bit with making the soy leap due to the controversy over GMO farming in the US. I got past it when I put using soy into the context of the primary alternatives for me being lard or tallow from factory farmed animals or butters that I can’t afford to use in the needed quantities. I’m still using animal fats, but I can imagine making more and more soy-based soaps if they continue to age well. Based on the experiences of @KiwiMoose and others, I’m expecting they will. If a non-GMO product becomes available in the US, I will try it, for sure!

 

[Sarah Izadyar]

Yes, Eurosoy 800 is available from here: https://www.livemoor.co.uk/products/eurosoy-800-top-quality-european-soy-wax?variant=20496664002648
It's grown in Europe and is non gmo. It's a lovely product and has no additives. It makes a nice creamy lather and if you add a little something nice as a water replacement (I use aloe vera juice) then the lather is plentiful. I also add a little Koh to fluff it up.
NatureWax C3 is also a good one for soap .

Hi. Do you use soap calculator to add soy wax to your soap? what is the best percentage in your experience, if i may ask?

 

[Carly B]

Thanks, @KiwiMoose ! I went and looked up the wax I have. No joy. High melting point and a "soy based additive to prevent frosting" (Hmm, would it help with soda ash in soap?)

Had I not asked, I never would have thought to check and just assumed soy wax was soy wax and it would have been fine.

 

[SoapSisters]

Thank you all for such valuable information! The local website, which sells soap, cosmetic and candle supplies, just lists it as "soy wax". But now I'm armed to ask the right questions about the product! Thanks again!

 

[penelopejane]

There is a swing against soy in food in Oz. I think the same people object to it in soap. I'm not saying it is objectionable in either food or soap, just do some research and make up your own mind.

 

[gloopygloop]

Yes, Eurosoy 800 is available from here: https://www.livemoor.co.uk/products/eurosoy-800-top-quality-european-soy-wax?variant=20496664002648
It's grown in Europe and is non gmo. It's a lovely product and has no additives. It makes a nice creamy lather and if you add a little something nice as a water replacement (I use aloe vera juice) then the lather is plentiful. I also add a little Koh to fluff it up.
NatureWax C3 is also a good one for soap .

Seasuds can I ask what sap no. you use for the Livemoor soy, feel I must get some in and give it a go as I was so disappointed in the Rapeseed wax I am hoping this will be good, your description of lather sounds very promising.

 

[SeaSuds]

I just use the soap calc for fully hydrogenated soy bean oil. Works for me! If you buy from Livemoor they are good at providing a batch number and use by date for your records if you ask.

 

[gloopygloop]

I just use the soap calc for fully hydrogenated soy bean oil. Works for me! If you buy from Livemoor they are good at providing a batch number and use by date for your records if you ask.

Thats great thank you, I am ordering from Livemoor right now!

 

[SeaSuds]

Its lovely, you won't regret it. It comes in chunks but its easy to cut

 

[gloopygloop]

Its lovely, you won't regret it. It comes in chunks but its easy to cut

Ooooow you have got me all excited and can't wait now to get my hands on it. I really like Stearic in soap but A. its palm based and B. well we all know how its seizes up, and I am an HPer but its still tricksy, so hoping this may be better.

 

[bookreader451]

I have a question regarding using soy wax. If I decided to give it a try what soap calculator has soy wax as an option.

 

[Carly B]

Soapcalc lists soybean, fully hydrogenated. That's what I'd use.

 

[gloopygloop]

I have a question regarding using soy wax. If I decided to give it a try what soap calculator has soy wax as an option.

So does Soapee.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

This post was moved to a new thread, here.

 

[KiwiMoose]

L

Many seem to be using the sap given for “soybean, fully hydrogenated” successfully, but when I was first contemplating using GW 415 I found some posts on this forum where makers reported softer or stickier than expected soap. There has also been quite a bit of uncertainty expressed about the fatty acid composition of GW 415. In my quest to determine the “real” FA profile of GW 415, I tracked down the manufacturer’s product sheet and Certificate of Analysis documents on the CandleScience.com website, here. Key information:

Fatty acid composition (typical values per 100 g):

• Saturated fat 44 g
• trans fat 39.4 g
• Monounsaturated fat 16.6 g
• Polyunsaturated fat 0 g

Iodine value: 45-55

So, what is the trans fat??? Based on research papers linked in earlier soy wax threads and some I found on my own, it’s highly likely that the trans fat is mostly elaidic acid, an unsaturated C18:1 fatty acid. If you don’t feel confident making that leap of faith, it’s easy enough to compare the iodine value range of 45-55 for GW 415 given by the manufacturer with the iodine values given for partially and fully hydrogenated soybean oil in the soap calculators.

First, as given on the Soapy Stuff website, here:

“The Iodine Number indicates the amount of of unsaturated fatty acids present. Soap made with mostly unsaturated (liquid) fats will tend to have a high Iodine Number and soap made with mostly saturated (solid) fats will have a low Iodine Number.”

The iodine number given in the SoapMakingFriend calculator for “soybean, fully hydrogenated” is 1 and for “soybean, 27.5% hydrogenated” is 78, both quite different from the 45-55 range for GW 415 given in the manufacturer’s COA sheets posted on the CandleScience.com website.

My research, calculations, reasons for settling on an NaOH sap of .144, estimated FA profile, and the results of some of my trial runs using various sap values are given in the thread I linked in post #6, above. I was more or less stumbling along at first, which probably makes it challenging to read the thread, but eventually my estimated numbers aligned well with the information available from the manufacturer.

And now for the easy part. I recently discovered that the SoapMakingFriend calculator allows a user to add a custom oil to the oil list. I used that feature to add “GW 415” with a KOH sap of .202, FA percentages I calculated and an average iodine value of 50 based on the range given by the manufacturer. SMFriend calculates the NaOH from a KOH sap. A KOH sap of .202 returns a NaOH sap of .144. The FA percentages I used are given in the linked thread.

lol - you’ve probably scared @bookreader451 off, Mobjack!
I would say, just use the Soybean, fully hydrogenated option in any soap calculator coz it works fine. The fatty acid profile isn’t correct in any of them as @Mobjack Bay has explained. But for the purposes of the amateur soap maker it works out fine. One day, when you want to get all technical and science-y just ask @Mobjack Bay to explain it again