Conditioning Help (please and thank you)

[Dean]

It actually took me at least 8 years and tons of soap to settle on my actual go to recipes. I tweak the liquid oils, depending what I get for a good price but that is pretty much it. Don't get me wrong, not all my soaps are the same but my tallow/lard ratio stays the same in my non-vegan soaps and my palm ratio stays the same in my vegan soaps. View attachment 36304 I like palm oil in my soap, and have more customers complain about soy

Probably not good idea to use this thread to reboot the palm/soy debate which has been discussed ad nauseum. Ralph is using other oils anyway. Let's help him within his chosen oil profile. He has more than enough oils already to make very good soap.

 

[shunt2011]

Probably not good idea to use this thread to reboot the palm/soy debate which has been discussed ad nauseum. Ralph is using other oils anyway. Let's help him within his chosen oil profile. He has more than enough oils already to make very good soap.

One of the recipes posted had soy in it. I too commented on substituting. Nobody's saying not to use it.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

Just wanted to say thank you to each and every one of you who responded. I appreciate the wisdom and learnings. I have 3 solid recipes to try just from this thread. I've learned more in this half day conversation than I have in a very long time. I'll make up three small test batches on Monday (I have a very full 5 days ahead of me). I'll keep this thread posted as I test out the results based on the initial recipe. If anyone has any tried and true testing procedures, I'd love to hear them. If not, I'll just have to do the washing hands, soaping up a wash cloth, and actual in the shower results.


Oh and I'm always on the look out for a good bar soap for short hair dogs. hint hint

<3

 

[IrishLass]

Ralph-, first of all, welcome to the forum!

Question- how's your water? Is it super hard? I ask, because that also plays a factor with lather. I live in the southwestern US, too, and the water here in my town is awfully hard- a hair's breadth away from being off the charts hard if not over it on some days, and we do not have a water softener. When formulating my soaps, I've had to use everything in my arsenal to combat the murder that my water does to the lather of my soap. One of the biggest helps, besides using 2 tbsp. sugar per pound of oils in every batch and using a 28% to 31% co/pko combo, is adding a chelator to my formula in the form of tetrasodium EDTA. Another one that works well is sodium citrate. It's used at only a small % (I use .5% tetrasodium EDTA as per the total weight of my soap) and it's amazing how my lather has perked up. Just thought I'd share.


IrishLass

 

[KiwiMoose]

^ good call Dean - I was going to suggest soy, but maybe I shouldn't now. My sister in law who has eczema used my soy based soap and said she left her hands feeling quite soft. I'll give you the recipe there but you will need to tweak as it has OO in it:

Apricot Kernel Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 25%
Castor Oil 10%
Olive Oil 20% ( maybe half and half with avocado/rice bran?)
Shea Butter 10%
Soy wax 20%

I concur with the too much coconut oil the others have stated. Have you thought about using apricot kernel oil or rice bran oil? I use both of these. Also avocado in small amounts sometimes.

 

[shunt2011]

^ good call Dean - I was going to suggest soy, but maybe I shouldn't now. My sister in law who has eczema used my soy based soap and said she left her hands feeling quite soft. I'll give you the recipe there but you will need to tweak as it has OO in it:

Apricot Kernel Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 25%
Castor Oil 10%
Olive Oil 20% ( maybe half and half with avocado/rice bran?)
Shea Butter 10%
Soy wax 20%

I concur with the too much coconut oil the others have stated. Have you thought about using apricot kernel oil or rice bran oil? I use both of these. Also avocado in small amounts sometimes.

You can recommend anything you want. Dean didn't make a recommendation just complained. I'm sure the OP is open to other suggestions. Doesn't want Olive oil.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

Also there is a ton of information on the "Beginners" section here. You can do a search just in that area too.
Also helps a bit to read up on what each oil does and the acid profiles.

I did all that including read books, used calculators, watched (what feels like years worth of) YouTube vids and every other research method I could think of. What I learned from all that was the same thing feels different to different people. That's why I asked for recommendations based on experience rather than calculations. I am a data guy! I love data and analysis but it wasn't getting me to where I wanted to go. I had to turn to actual people (oh the horror) for help on this one
I would love to know what someone with much more experience than I have thinks about the original recipe as I make it. Just a challenge if anyone finds themselves bored.

Ralph-, first of all, welcome to the forum!

Question- how's your water? Is it super hard? I ask, because that also plays a factor with lather. I live in the southwestern US, too, and the water here in my town is awfully hard- a hair's breadth away from being off the charts hard if not over it on some days, and we do not have a water softener. When formulating my soaps, I've had to use everything in my arsenal to combat the murder that my water does to the lather of my soap. One of the biggest helps, besides using 2 tbsp. sugar per pound of oils in every batch and using a 28% to 31% co/pko combo, is adding a chelator to my formula in the form of tetrasodium EDTA. Another one that works well is sodium citrate. It's used at only a small % (I use .5% tetrasodium EDTA as per the total weight of my soap) and it's amazing how my lather has perked up. Just thought I'd share.


IrishLass

Here in metro Phoenix, our water is very hard! I know it plays a part as I am a wet shaver and fight with lather issues. I am taking that into consideration as I go through all of this. Hard water is just one of the prices I'm willing to pay to live in paradise.
I have never used a chelator. Thanks for the info, now I have something else to research and learn about

2 tbls (did you mean to type tablespoons?) of sugar PPO? I did 1 T PPO of honey on a batch which was a mistake (I weigh everything) and it was a disaster. What kind of sugar are you referring to? Does it behave differently than honey? I'm not married to honey, I just like helping out the bees wherever I can.

 

[IrishLass]

Hi Ralph- just regular white granulated sugar. Basically, I use 5% sugar by weight as per each pound of oils in my batches, which roughly = 2 tablespoons by volume. When I make my honey/beeswax soap, instead of the white sugar, I use 5% honey by weight as per each pound of oils in my batch, which equals out to 1 tablespoon by volume as per pound of my oils (it weighs more than granulated sugar).

For what it's worth, I do my honey soaps differently than many people......I add the honey directly to my cooled-off lye solution before adding it to my oils. Adding the honey to my lye solution first eliminates all the weird drama that can happen to soap when adding honey to it. Fellow member Salted Fig has a great post somewhere on the forum explaining from a chemical standpoint why adding honey to the lye instead of to the batter produces drama-free results. I'll try and see if I can find it and post a link here. Anyway, I had been adding my honey like that for years with awesome drama-free results before Salted Fig came along and explained the why of it.

I looked over your original recipe in SoapCalc and wow- that would be some drying soap....and that's coming from someone whose skin (and whose family's skin) is fine with higher amounts of coconut and PKO than several folks here, even though the climate is crazy dry where I live. Go figure!

For what it's worth, this is how I tweaked your original formula so that it would be quite compatible with me and my family. The fatty acid profile is very much the same as my tallow/lard soap which is a fave of my hubby and son and is super bubbly and non-drying to us, only the tweak is 1 percentage point more conditioning than mine. I normally add .5% tetrasodium EDTA to it as per the total weight of my soap, as well as 2 tablespoons granulated sugar as per each pound of the oils in my batch, and also 2% sodium lactate as per pound of oils:

Everyone's skin is different in what it likes/hates, but the above fatty acid profile is what we happen to like.


IrishLass


Edited to add: I superfat mine @ 8%

 

[Zing]

You must be a Disney or Shaun Cassidy fan.

So we must be the only 3 to get the Shaun Cassidy reference. Everyone else is going "who"? A co-worker recently did not know what a VHS tape was when shown one.... Young whippersnappers!

 

[cmzaha]

Probably not good idea to use this thread to reboot the palm/soy debate which has been discussed ad nauseum. Ralph is using other oils anyway. Let's help him within his chosen oil profile. He has more than enough oils already to make very good soap.

Was not trying to start anything, I can state what I use. Just noticed your signature line...
The recipe above from IrishLass would make a lovely soap

 

[penelopejane]

Thanks for the help. Playing around on the calculator here's what I'll try:

SF @ 10%
Coconut Oil 20%
Lard 29%
Palm Kernel Oil 15%
Shea Butter 15%
Castor Oil 10%
Avocado Oil 5%
Safflower, HO 5%
Beeswax 1%

Sodium Lactate (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)
Honey (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)

OO? Olive Oil? It's just not an option for me.

You asked for a review on this.
I’d drop CO to 10%
I can not feel the difference in any oil at 5% except castor so I would use minimum 10% of any oil. Castor oil at higher than 5% makes a sticky soft soap.
A SF of 10% of any soap except a salt bar is going to be on the sticky/slimy side. I’d drop that to 5% or lower.
I don’t add anything at trace as it doesn’t get mixed in really well. I add honey to the oils.

Irish lass has given you good advice as have many others.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

Hi Ralph- just regular white granulated sugar. Basically, I use 5% sugar by weight as per each pound of oils in my batches, which roughly = 2 tablespoons by volume. When I make my honey/beeswax soap, instead of the white sugar, I use 5% honey by weight as per each pound of oils in my batch, which equals out to 1 tablespoon by volume as per pound of my oils (it weighs more than granulated sugar).

For what it's worth, I do my honey soaps differently than many people......I add the honey directly to my cooled-off lye solution before adding it to my oils. Adding the honey to my lye solution first eliminates all the weird drama that can happen to soap when adding honey to it. Fellow member Salted Fig has a great post somewhere on the forum explaining from a chemical standpoint why adding honey to the lye instead of to the batter produces drama-free results. I'll try and see if I can find it and post a link here. Anyway, I had been adding my honey like that for years with awesome drama-free results before Salted Fig came along and explained the why of it.

I looked over your original recipe in SoapCalc and wow- that would be some drying soap....and that's coming from someone whose skin (and whose family's skin) is fine with higher amounts of coconut and PKO than several folks here, even though the climate is crazy dry where I live. Go figure!

For what it's worth, this is how I tweaked your original formula so that it would be quite compatible with me and my family. The fatty acid profile is very much the same as my tallow/lard soap which is a fave of my hubby and son and is super bubbly and non-drying to us, only the tweak is 1 percentage point more conditioning than mine. I normally add .5% tetrasodium EDTA to it as per the total weight of my soap, as well as 2 tablespoons granulated sugar as per each pound of the oils in my batch, and also 2% sodium lactate as per pound of oils:


View attachment 36305

Everyone's skin is different in what it likes/hates, but the above fatty acid profile is what we happen to like.


IrishLass


Edited to add: I superfat mine @ 8%

Where has that sugar/honey secret been hiding? We all have enough honey drama already, probably don't need more in our soap making.

Thanks for the recipe. I'll add it to my trial on Monday (now up to 4).

 

[Lin19687]

@Ralph Deitrick I may have missed it, but have you actually made any of the recipes you stated?

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

Here is the work for Monday

 

[Dean]

So we must be the only 3 to get the Shaun Cassidy reference. Everyone else is going "who"? A co-worker recently did not know what a VHS tape was when shown one.... Young whippersnappers!

Embarrassingly, it was my first album. I remember when the hippy generation from the 60's got old. Now its us that grew up in 70's. Today there are adults that were not even alive in 80's. Time flies...

 

[Lin19687]

I only ask because you will have to wait 4-6 weeks to see how it works for your skin. But having a few different recipes helps, just remember to label them good

 

[Dean]

You can recommend anything you want. Dean didn't make a recommendation just complained. I'm sure the OP is open to other suggestions. Doesn't want Olive oil.

I did not complain. The thread contains 3 posts from me with recommendations, including the one of working with Ralph's prefer list of oils.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

I only ask because you will have to wait 4-6 weeks to see how it works for your skin. But having a few different recipes helps, just remember to label them good

Of the 4 I listed? No, not yet. I have made several prior to getting me (and us) to this conversation. Maybe this opens a completely separate can of worms but I have never bought into the whole 4 - 6 weeks curing time thing. I understand the evap but all of my soaps have worked after a few days of resting. By the time I get to bar 4, 4 - 6 weeks have elapsed and I really haven't seen/smelt/felt any real significant difference.

I did not complain. The thread contains 3 posts from me with recommendations, including the one of working with Ralph's prefer list of oils.

That is how I interpreted your posts Dean.

Embarrassingly, it was my first album. I remember when the hippy generation from the 60's got old. Now its us that grew up in 70's. Today there are adults that were not even alive in 80's. Time flies...

I share music with friends quite a bit. I slip Up to Date in every chance I get. It always is received with the nervous laugh of not being able to tell if I'm serious or joking.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Embarrassingly, it was my first album. I remember when the hippy generation from the 60's got old. Now its us that grew up in 70's. Today there are adults that were not even alive in 80's. Time flies...

I only remember David Cassidy. Any relation?

 

[Dean]

I only remember David Cassidy. Any relation?

1/2 brothers.