Conditioning Help (please and thank you)

[Ralph Deitrick]

OK so to start, I did skim through all 161 results when I searched "conditioning". I was trying to be self sufficient
Next point... This question concerns my daily, in the shower, unscented soap.
Last point... Olive oil is NOT an option.

Here's the issue... I live in Phoenix and it's pretty dry here . I am trying to up the conditioning properties of my CP soap. I have created this recipe (below) over time and it hits all the areas I want, i.e. later, hardness, skin feel. I just want to bump the conditioning up some. It's pretty good but with my skin type, it could be a little better.

I have tried messing with different calculators but minor adjustments don't point me in the direction I want to go. I have also found that the calculators results aren't always indicative of the actual results "felt". So I would love any recommendations you all might have based on experience that raise the conditioning level of hard CP soap.

SF @ 10%
Coconut Oil 30%
Beef Tallow 29%
Palm Kernel Oil 15%
Shea Butter 10%
Castor Oil 10%
Sweet Almond Oil 5%
Beeswax 1%

Sodium Lactate (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)
Honey (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

 

[artemis]

EThank you for searching first! So many people seem to not even try. You might try also searching for "moisturizing," since the new soapers often call it that when asking for help.

I think the main thing you're going to hear is that your first three ingredients are the problem. CO, Tallow, and PKO are more stripping. And your more "conditioning" SB and SA are low by comparison.

I've never used Tallow myself, so I can only give opinions, but maybe switch it out for lard, and increase that percentage. Lower the CO and PKO. Increase Shea to 15. Increase the almond (I prefer avocado, myself). Decrease castor, as needed to make room for adjustments.

I'm sure someone with more Tallow experience will chime in soon.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

EThank you for searching first! So many people seem to not even try. You might try also searching for "moisturizing," since the new soapers often call it that when asking for help.

I think the main thing you're going to hear is that your first three ingredients are the problem. CO, Tallow, and PKO are more stripping. And your more "conditioning" SB and SA are low by comparison.

I've never used Tallow myself, so I can only give opinions, but maybe switch it out for lard, and increase that percentage. Lower the CO and PKO. Increase Shea to 15. Increase the almond (I prefer avocado, myself). Decrease castor, as needed to make room for adjustments.

I'm sure someone with more Tallow experience will chime in soon.

Thanks so much for the response. Do you really feel a difference with avocado oil vs. almond (you personally)? I have not tried avocado simply due to all the calculators show is it is less conditioning than almond.

 

[penelopejane]

^^i agree with Artemis. Particularly cut the coconut to 0-10%

The annoying thing about soap is that everyone’s skin is different and reacts differently to soap. So you really have to try the different oils in different soaps.

I like almond. In blind tests people have chosen almond over avocado.
But I really like avocado.

Don’t rely on “the numbers” do your own testing.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

^^i agree with Artemis. Particularly cut the coconut to 0-10%

How do I compensate for the reduction in lather?
When I first started using honey I made a calculation error and used 3X the amount I was supposed to (yeah, that whole Tbsp vs tsp thing) so I know it's not honey that will help that, hehehe.

 

[shunt2011]

I third the advice. Drop the CO to 15-20 I don't like less, but it's a personal thing. I like a combination of CO and PKO. I use more PKO than CO. but your percentage with both is way too high. Either eliminate PKO and drop the CO and you should see a difference by replacing that with Avocado or HO Sunflower. I like Avocado in soap. Your honey will help with the lather.

Coconut and PKO are your cleansing oils. You don't want to strip all the natural oils from your skin leaving it tight.

What SF are you going to use? I would do 5-7%.

I can't speak to tallow though I've heard it's a bit more cleansing. I love lard.

 

[penelopejane]

How do I compensate for the reduction in lather?
When I first started using honey I made a calculation error and used 3X the amount I was supposed to (yeah, that whole Tbsp vs tsp thing) so I know it's not honey that will help that, hehehe.

I use OO cured as my base oil and no or very low (10%) CO and I get great lather. Bubbles are another matter and I don’t really aim for them.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

Thanks for the help. Playing around on the calculator here's what I'll try:

SF @ 10%
Coconut Oil 20%
Lard 29%
Palm Kernel Oil 15%
Shea Butter 15%
Castor Oil 10%
Avocado Oil 5%
Safflower, HO 5%
Beeswax 1%

Sodium Lactate (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)
Honey (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)

I use OO cured as my base oil and no or very low (10%) CO and I get great lather. Bubbles are another matter and I don’t really aim for them.

OO? Olive Oil? It's just not an option for me.

 

[Dahila]

U use tallow and lard in every soap so usually Coconut is at 18 % . When I do not use tallow i up my CO to 20

 

[Obsidian]

Part of your issue is trying to create a soap that is high conditioning. In all honesty, that number is pretty useless.
Instead, look at your cleansing number, you want to keep that one between 10-15 for dry skin.
Also, getting a lot of big fluffy lather and low cleansing doesn't really go hand in hand since the oils that make a lot of bubbles are also the ones that strip your skin.
Do you have to use butters? I have a recipe I really like but it has no butters.

Lard 60%
Avocado/almond or your liquid oil of preference 25% I like ho sunflower. It helps make big bubbles.
Coconut/pko or a combo of them 10%
Castor 5%

If you really want butters, drop some lard and replace with your butters.

 

[Lin19687]

Devil's advocate here..... You do know that you will not be able to get a SOAP that will condition or moisturize your skin. Soap cleans, which means it takes away oils from the skin.
Also if you want 'Lather" the oils that promote that will be more 'drying'.

In AZ you Must use a Lotion if you want to hydrate your skin. Speaking from a child who's parents lived in AZ and when visiting I had to lube up and drink 10 gal of liquid to replenish the fluid I lost with in an hr of being there

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

Part of your issue is trying to create a soap that is high conditioning. In all honesty, that number is pretty useless.
Instead, look at your cleansing number, you want to keep that one between 10-15 for dry skin.
Also, getting a lot of big fluffy lather and low cleansing doesn't really go hand in hand since the oils that make a lot of bubbles are also the ones that strip your skin.
Do you have to use butters? I have a recipe I really like but it has no butters.

Lard 60%
Avocado/almond or your liquid oil of preference 25% I like ho sunflower. It helps make big bubbles.
Coconut/pko or a combo of them 10%
Castor 5%

If you really want butters, drop some lard and replace with your butters.

No, I do not have to use butters. I started using it a while back and they seemed to work so I just left them. I have been hesitant to just strip the recipe and revamp since it is "almost there".

Interesting perspective to focus on the cleansing number. I've never taken that approach.

I really like the minimalist approach of this without the use of olive oil

Devil's advocate here..... You do know that you will not be able to get a SOAP that will condition or moisturize your skin. Soap cleans, which means it takes away oils from the skin.
Also if you want 'Lather" the oils that promote that will be more 'drying'.

In AZ you Must use a Lotion if you want to hydrate your skin. Speaking from a child who's parents lived in AZ and when visiting I had to lube up and drink 10 gal of liquid to replenish the fluid I lost with in an hr of being there

I appreciate the "devil's" point of view. Being here in AZ does present some unique challenges. My skin does pretty good at replenishing the oils (even here) so I'm looking for the "perfect" balance of cleaning vs. not over-stripping I guess. Why can't I have it all? hehehe

 

[dixiedragon]

You might want to try something like this:
Avocado Oil: 30%
Castor Oil: 10%
Olive Oil: 40%
Shea Butter: 10%
Soybean Oil: 10%

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

I haven't made it but I've heard good things about it!

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

You might want to try something like this:
Avocado Oil: 30%
Castor Oil: 10%
Olive Oil: 40%
Shea Butter: 10%
Soybean Oil: 10%

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

I haven't made it but I've heard good things about it!

Thanks for the recipe but it has olive oil in it so it's a no go for me

 

[Lin19687]

I appreciate the "devil's" point of view. Being here in AZ does present some unique challenges. My skin does pretty good at replenishing the oils (even here) so I'm looking for the "perfect" balance of cleaning vs. not over-stripping I guess. Why can't I have it all? hehehe

You might want to do a Liquid soap. Much less drying in general I have found.
Soap will clean, I guess it depends on how much dirt you have If you are a Tar layer then you might want the stripping soap lol.
There are plenty of 'not overly stripping' soaps, but you won't get a 'Moisturizing' soap.

 

[artemis]

SF @ 10%
Coconut Oil 20%
Lard 29%
Palm Kernel Oil 15%
Shea Butter 15%
Castor Oil 10%
Avocado Oil 5%
Safflower, HO 5%
Beeswax 1%

Sodium Lactate (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)
Honey (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)

I still feel like that's kind of heavy on the "cleansing" oils. I also feel like 5% isn't going to affect much. I like my avocado at 10%, at least. I'd probably take it away from the CO or PKO, since you're also getting hardness from the Shea.

All of us who like avocado for some undefinable reason are going to keep suggesting you use more. Everyone else is just going to roll their eyes at us and shrug. [emoji1]

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

You might want to do a Liquid soap. Much less drying in general I have found.
Soap will clean, I guess it depends on how much dirt you have If you are a Tar layer then you might want the stripping soap lol.
There are plenty of 'not overly stripping' soaps, but you won't get a 'Moisturizing' soap.

Nope, not a tar layer

It seems like my chasing moisture has sent me down the wrong path. My pursuit should really have been focused towards cleansing.

 

[dixiedragon]

Thanks for the recipe but it has olive oil in it so it's a no go for me

Whoops missed that! Replace olive oil with sunflower, or with sunflower + rice bran.

 

[Lin19687]

Make sure the Sunflower is HO not regular

 

[Dean]

I’d drop the lauric+myristic down to at least 10. I use AO, which produces more lather than other high oleics, and get good lather with that level of L+M. Even at 10 soap can be drying in winter. I find high SF not helpful.

Single AvO soap has reported to leave a greasy film after rinsing so using it at lower amts may have a cond benefit that sticks around after rinse. I started a thread on this. Got responses but not really much of a confirmation.