Cold pressed oils? Refined butters?

[Chaiat5]

We are having such cool weather here… good time to make soaps! And of course, I have more questions than ever!!

I found a place selling shea butter. The raw kind is SO tempting but madly expensive, even at only 250g. (I know shea butter is pricey but the huge tax on imported goods is a double whammy.) The refined one is half this price. This place also sells refined cocoa butter (no unrefined cocoa butter) — same price as the unrefined shea butter.

Question #1: What is your stance on refined butters? I ask because there is a local soap maker (soaper? soapist?) who turns up her nose at refined stuff. She won’t say exactly where she gets her unrefined ingredients, more is the pity

Question #2: Do you think it is wiser for me to try soaping with the cheaper refined shea butter since I am new to this soap business?

Question #3: I also chanced upon a local place that sells extra virgin, cold pressed and unrefined (so they say) sunflower and canola oils. I am tempted to use the sunflower oil… but wondering if the soap will get all dossy? Is it worth considering, you think? (I do have some EVOO, cold pressed CO and PKO at the moment.)

 

[Vicki C]

I tend to look for the best prices since I buy in large quantities - I’ve used both refined and unrefined shea butter. The refined shea was much harder, unrefined was more buttery, I liked the unrefined better, but honestly it was just cheaper at the time.
Re the cold pressed canola and sunflower, personally I would look for high oleic oils and not worry about them being cold pressed. It’s the fatty acid composition that will make it go dossy. I have switched to HO sunflower since the olive oil prices are out of reach.
Your local soapmaker sounds unhelpful.

 

[Ekuzo]

1. I don't mind either. From what I know, often refined ones are also deodorized and decolored (decolorized? Lol), but I'm one of those who can't find difference in the final product when it comes to color and scent - plus I use those butters at low %, so there's that. Not too much into that stuff, I think they use chemicals when they refine them (I may be wrong, or at least in some instances) so that's something to consider I guess.

2. Definitely go for the cheaper one, I do that and I don't sell.

3. Regular SO and canola/rapeseed/whatever tends to get more prone to DOS and can give you a softer bar if you are not careful and use too much of it. How much is too much? Well, YMMV, I learned that if I put 10% of such oil in my soap, I get disappointed, even if my combined linoleic/linolenic is less than 15%. Of course, you can use additives to help with rancidity/hardness, but I prefer when a soap is okay in that department by itself without many things needed in order to be good. That's why I stopped using SO, I know some people like it, but I can't see the point in using it anymore. Of course, HOSO is a different story, I like that one.

I also use pomace OO, just because it's cheaper. Yes, it's chemically processed olive leftovers, but at this point I'm not very concerned about that and if I have expensive OO I'll prefer to consume it rather than soap with it.

Oh, I like to use the word 'soaper' - it's short and I won't even bother checking if it's an actual word lol. I've also seen people on the forum use 'soapee/soapey', which is kind of nice

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I usually use refined shea butter in soap, but have also used unrefined. I never did a side-by-side comparison test of the final bars, but also can't recall noticing a difference in use.

My preferred cocoa butter for soap is the refined wafer form due to ease of use. I was buying it when it was on sale and currently have a stash. If I had to restock right now, cost would be a major consideration.

 

[Chaiat5]

@Vicki C Thank you so much… I was really blown away by the butter prices! Then I spoke to a friend I’d met in a soap making class — she is from Chad and is now based in Senegal for UN work. She is revelling in all the butters in Africa! I’ll see about HOSO … hard to tell because labelling is just rubbish here!

 

[Misschief]

I purchase Shea butter from a Canadian company (Mamaa Trade). I generally use it in my creams and lotions. For soap, I would rather use the refined, cheaper shea butter. Likewise with olive oil... or any oil, really. Why waste (not necessarily the right word) the "good stuff" in a soap where there's no guarantee how much of the butter/oil is remaining in the final product?

 

[Chaiat5]

From what I know, often refined ones are also deodorized and decolored (decolorized? Lol), but I'm one of those who can't find difference in the final product when it comes to color and scent - plus I use those butters at low %, so there's that.

Yes! The unrefined ones look creamier and not so clinically pale.

Of course, you can use additives to help with rancidity/hardness, but I prefer when a soap is okay in that department by itself without many things needed in order to be good. That's why I stopped using SO, I know some people like it, but I can't see the point in using it anymore. Of course, HOSO is a different story, I like that one.

I get you… for me, I am so haphazard so there is the added risk of messing up the calculations and formulations! I managed to get the label for the sunflower oil. (Picture attached.) Is this high oleic sunflower oil?

I also use pomace OO, just because it's cheaper. Yes, it's chemically processed olive leftovers, but at this point I'm not very concerned about that and if I have expensive OO I'll prefer to consume it rather than soap with it.

I had tried getting regular OO, but it seems this is all about two ends of the pole here!

My preferred cocoa butter for soap is the refined wafer form due to ease of use. I was buying it when it was on sale and currently have a stash. If I had to restock right now, cost would be a major consideration.

Cost is a major issue for me too… even locally produced olive oils are pricey, never mind imported butters. If there isn’t a huge discernible difference, perhaps I should experiment with the cheaper, refined ones first.

Why waste (not necessarily the right word) the "good stuff" in a soap where there's no guarantee how much of the butter/oil is remaining in the final product?

That’s a good point!!

 

[Vicki C]

Yes! The unrefined ones look creamier and not so clinically pale.


I get you… for me, I am so haphazard so there is the added risk of messing up the calculations and formulations! I managed to get the label for the sunflower oil. (Picture attached.) Is this high oleic sunflower oil?


I had tried getting regular OO, but it seems this is all about two ends of the pole here!

View attachment 79593

It looks like a mid oleic - check out this excellent page by @DeeAnna https://classicbells.com/soap/highOleic.asp
Divide the monounsaturated fat (9.5) by the total fat (14) - if it is over .7 it is generally considered high oleic. Yours is .68 so it’s a high-ish mid oleic. Might be sold as high oleic?
There is definitely some variation in the fatty acid compositions of high oleic sunflower. I went down a little rabbit hole a while ago comparing different HO sunflower oils. Here’s a table with what I found. I’m sorry it doesn’t paste into this format very well.

		High stearic / high oleic (Nutrisun)	High oleic	High oleic	High oleic	high oleic	Virgin olive oil	HO sunflower
		https://www.sunflowernsa.com/uploads/35/sunflower-oil-fact-sheet_062510.pdf	https://www.sunflowernsa.com/uploads/35/sunflower-oil-fact-sheet_062510.pdf	https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/properties-of-high-oleic-seed-oils.html	https://www.stobec.com/DATA/PRODUIT/2534~v~data.pdf	https://www.researchgate.net/figure...nd-high-oleic-sunflower-oil-HOSO_tbl1_7169554		https://www.nutritionadvance.com/high-oleic-sunflower-oil/
Lauric (C12:0)					0.1
Myristic (C14:0)					0.1			0.07142857143
Pentadecylic (C15:0)								0.7857142857
Palmitic (C16:0)		5	4	4	5.75	4.2	3.5	3.714285714
Margaric (17:0)						0.1	0.3
Stearic (C18:0)		18	5	4	5	4.4	2.3	4.357142857
Arachidic (C20:0)				0.3	0.6
Behenic (C22:0)				1	1	0.7	0.2	1
Lignoceric (C24:0)				0.4
Palmitoleic (C16:1 (n7))				0.1	0.2	0.1	0.5	0.07142857143
Oleic ((C18:1)(n9))		72	82	84	84	79.3	76.5	82.85714286
Cis-Vaccenic acid (C18:1 (n-7))
Eicosenoic (C20:1)(n9)	Paullinic acid			0.3		0.2	0.3
Gadoleic (C20:1)					0.3
Linoleic (C18:2)		5	9	6	10	10.4	5.6	3.571428571
Linolenic (C18:3)				0.1	0.2	0.5	1.1

 

[Chaiat5]

Thank you so much! This is so informative. They are quite lax about these things here… even EOs are a little suspect — no certifications/checks etc.

 

[Ekuzo]

As Vicki C mentioned, this particular HOSO is kind of on the fence. And you usually get different variations even within the same batch. The one I use has higher monounsaturated FA content (it says 7.5-8.5g per 9.2g on the label) and it's definitely HO, I like using it. But I'd say, if the one you found is not expensive, get it and try it, you got nothing to lose. Still a lot better than regular SO. No matter if you consider it high or mid oleic, it's still a good choice for soaping

 

[Chaiat5]

As Vicki C mentioned, this particular HOSO is kind of on the fence. And you usually get different variations even within the same batch. The one I use has higher monounsaturated FA content (it says 7.5-8.5g per 9.2g on the label) and it's definitely HO, I like using it. But I'd say, if the one you found is not expensive, get it and try it, you got nothing to lose. Still a lot better than regular SO. No matter if you consider it high or mid oleic, it's still a good choice for soaping

Thanks for the help. I might try a small batch Wish me luck!!

 

[MelissaG]

I've used both. Honestly, I use whatever is cheapest most of the time unless I have something specific I'm doing that requires a more white color. If Olive oil ever comes down in price again, I'd like to go for a lighter color if I can find it, even though it costs more.