Citric Acid and Cloudy Liquid Soap

[Darlene]

I have made 4 batches of liquid soap since November, with the Catherine Failor book by my side while also referring to David Fisher's site on about.com, and chickens in the road and whom ever else I could gather information from. (I do try to be informed before I leap.)
My first question is - Am I the only person in the world of LS that has an issue with citric acid throwing my whole batch of clear amber colored soap into a cloudy mess? (After diluting and only for the purpose of neutralizing.)
Yes, I did try the recommended solution as per Catherine's book. Yes, I did try cooking it again with everything in it to see if more time was needed for the acid to react with the soap as per Catherine's book also.
The 3rd batch was the only batch that came out clear and with that I used the borax solution first and was worried that it didn't seem to neutralized below 10, so I put in the citric acid and let it sequester. This produced about 3/4" cloudy mixture on top of soap, so, yep, I cooked it again. A little better result. So, so, frustrating........Help?

 

[green soap]

I recently made a liquid soap using citric acid, and it is cloudy. In the past, I got clear liquid soap using borax. I have the Failor book and use the method on Fisher's site as well.

However, just to complicate things, I was attributing the cloudiness to using 5% avocado oil. Avocado oil has a high percentage of unsaponifiables, which can cloud liquid soap.

I was going to do my next batch without the avocado, but keeping the citric acid as neutralizer. After reading your post, I am not so sure. Anyone else has used either citric acid, or avocado oil in small amounts, and got clear liquid soap?

 

[tryanything]

I'd love to help but the one batch of liquid soap I've made I used vanilla FO and that turns liquid soap dark brown as well as CP soap. So my soap is not clear because it's so dark! I did use citric acid to neutralize. I want to make another batch at some point with a different FO so I guess I'll see if I have this problem then.

 

[Fragola]

I don't try to make clear soap, but was looking at an old batch which is pretty clear.

From my experiments, it is possible to neutralize it and have it almost clear, the tricky part comes with fragrances, and thickening.

In my book, after neutralizing comes the thickening, which I achieve with salt (brine). Heating the soap would cause it to get completely clear, but after few days, it would start to cloud back.

That being said, I don't thicken it anymore, since I'm using a foamer bottle, which saves me soap (and money).

 

[green soap]

I forgot to mention that I scented half of my last batch, left the other half unscented. Both are equally cloudy, so it is not the scent. For scent I used orange and clove EOs. The orange colored the soap a little (nice orange color).

The other strange thing about this soap is that a layer of foam like stuff stays on the top. If I don't move the bottle the soap looks pretty clear, but when I move it the layer on top gets the cloudiness going. This has never happened before, and it does not look like what citric acid should do. It looks rather like a layer of unsaponifiables, so I think it is the avocado oil.

Really hard decision on choosing citric acid or borax for the next batch though.

 

[Fragola]

Forgot to ask about the pH ...

If you add that much citric acid that pH gets low - lower than maybe 9.5 - it will be cloudy.

 

[carebear]

um, I have to disagree. again.
you say you neutralize your soap... pH 9.5 isn't exactly neutralized...

 

[Fragola]

Precisely this is the reason I have added the previous post, because I remembered that different people prefer to adjust the pH of their liquid soap at a different value.

Or to put it differently, each homemade soap has it's own definition of "neutralized" And they often don't disagree with eachother. Though sometimes they do.

It is neutralized in the sense that the excess lye is neutralized. Seems to be a very common utilization of the word.

I am aware that neutral has other meanings, for example a neutral pH generally refers to pH 7 or a skin neutral product refers to a product with the same pH as the skin. Yes, and there's also Switzerland

 

[Darlene]

The first time I made my soap with the recommendations per Failor's book. I panicked when I saw the cloud beginning and took my stick blender to it. Followed up with another TBSP of acid with same results. Scented it and took it the way it was, thinking I must have mis-measured somewhere.

Yes, I also got that stuff on top when I used the borax and acid. This method was actually quite clear.

Oh, and by cloudy, I mean nothing translucently about it.

I did read somewhere that one person cooks their paste on low heat (woodstove style) for 3 to 4 days and when they are done diluting it, cooks it again (can't remember how long), but they say all this cooking means you don't have to neut. Then they let it sequester for 6 mo. to a 1 year. ??????

 

[green soap]

um, I have to disagree. again.
you say you neutralize your soap... pH 9.5 isn't exactly neutralized...

Oh no, so sorry, I did not mean that. Liquid soap is usually made with excess lye, so 'neutralize' just meant to react all excess lye with either citric acid or borax. I realize soap is going to be alkaline (8.5-10 pH)

 

[kellistarr]

After much experimentation with LS soap, I have learned what to do and what not to do with my batches. I always neutralize with borax, using the less is more method. Too much borax will give you that foam on the top.
I would separate out some of your LS and add less citric acid than you think your soap dilution requires and see what your results are.

Borax can also be used as a thickener, but I don't rely on it for that because, again, too much results in the foam on top. I use HEC which is wonderful, the best thing that has happened to my LS. It stays clear, is easy to use and gives your soap a super silky, slippery professional feel.

At the moment, I am not using fragrance or EO"s because I haven't met one that doesn't result in foam on top. I don't mind uniform cloudiness, but I despise the foam on the top and scooping it off isn't an option because sometimes it's a large quantity of the soap. When I do play with
fragrance again, I will separate out my soap in several jars, trying out different amounts to see what results I get.

LS is a lot of fun but it can also be exasperating! Right now, I'm thrilled with my unscented, clear soap. I also use castor oil in all of my LS, not only does it make super bubbles, but it acts as a natural solvent which also helps to clear the soap. Good luck with your endeavors!

 

[carolyntn]

Kellistar - what is HEC and how do you use it in LS?
Thanks
Carolyn

 

[kellistarr]

HEC (hydroxyethyl cellulose) is a natural thickener. It remains clear in your soap, so if your soap ends up cloudy, HEC is not the culprit. It thickens your soap very nicely and gives it a different feel than it has without it. You can find it at Lotioncrafter or Makingcosmetics,com. You add it, once your soap is diluted and then stick blend to disperse. You don't have to stick blend until it thickens, it will do that on it's own.

You will notice an immediate difference in your soap. When I stick blend my soap it appears creamy and opague, when I pour it into my jar it clears up and a bit of foam will be on top. I just put the cap on and the foam disappears within a couple hours.

 

[Darlene]

Thanks Kellistar! My borax neut. batch also had castor oil in it. I agree with your line of experimentations. I guess I will be sticking to borax method of neut. from now on.

Which leads to another question: If neutralizing results in lowering the ph by 1 point (as per only by my own results), do you really need to neutralize? Won't the ph come down by "aging it"? Or perhaps longer cooking after dilution?

 

[green soap]

Yes you need to neutralize it because liquid soap recipes are formulated with a lye excess (KOH). You do want to react the excess KOH that is left after saponification. Otherwise, the soap would be very harsh, or worse.

 

[carolyntn]

Thank you so much, Kellistar! I really like my liquid soap, but it is a tad bit too thin. I've been weighing my options for thickening and I'll get researching this option!
Carolyn

 

[kellistarr]

I agree with green soap that neutralizing is a necessary step.

Darlene, I had the same thought process that the soap would just neutralize on its own, given time. I did experiment with "non-neutralizing" the LS, despite the fact that there is excess KOH being used. I didn't thicken it either. My results were a crystal clear soap that was, of course, as thin as water and though it had a nice lather, it was very harsh! My hands looked dry and whitish and old. This was 5 days later. I didn't experience any burning (I could have) but the harshness of it couldn't be dismissed. On day 6, I reheated and added in the borax and it was fine.

Carolyn, You're welcome! Good Luck with your research and your soap

 

[Kleine Teufel]

Ok, here's my question... And I apologize if it sounds stupid, but why does KoH have to be used in excess? I've done liquid soap by cutting bar soap up and placing it in water until it softens up into a good liquid soap. There was never any separation even after a few months, and it worked really, really well. Obviously this was for personal use only, but what I wonder is, if I can use NaOH with a superfat to make a liquid soap, then why does the KOH have to be used in excess? I'm just not sure I understand it, not trying to ruffle feathers or anything.

 

[kellistarr]

This may explain things a bit:

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/liqui ... liquid.htm

 

[jwal]

Re:

HEC (hydroxyethyl cellulose) is a natural thickener.

Is it really natural? It seems pretty far from natural based on the description...