Changing Superfat % does not change soap bar quality values in SoapCalc?

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BARJRD

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I just noticed that when I reduced the superfat % in SoapCalc that the soap bar qualities did not change. The only difference in the printed recipe was the superfat % and lye amount.
I would think that reducing the superfat % would result in a lower Creaminess score, a higher Cleanliness score, etc.???
 
Thanks. It just seems like the soap would be less creamy and conditioning with a low superfatted bar.
 
The qualities shown in the calculator reflect only the saponified oils, not unsaponified oils or any other additives like sugar, yogurt, sodium lactate, etc.

The "numbers" are based on the total amounts of the fatty acids in the soap. It doesn't matter whether the fatty acids are saponified or not. That's why the numbers don't change if you change the % of superfat.

If the numbers changed based on the superfat, then the calc developers would need to know how much of each fatty acid will saponify, because fatty acids don't saponify evenly. That's chemistry far beyond the scope of what's reasonable to include in a soap recipe c@lc.

AliOop is correct, however, that the "numbers" are based only on the fatty acids in the recipe -- the numbers don't include the effect of additives.

The common thinking isn't necessarily true that a higher superfat = milder (or more conditioning) soap. Many soap makers including myself routinely use "low" superfats of 1-3% and get good results.

It is true that a high superfat is sometimes needed to "tame" a soap that otherwise would be a harsh cleanser -- a 100% coconut oil soap with 20% superfat is a good example.

But if you formulate a recipe to have a more balanced fatty acid profile, the soap can be gentle and mild to the skin even with a lower superfat. And the side benefit of less superfat is more abundant lather -- extra fat is a lather killer.

The creamy quality of lather is based mostly on the percentage of stearic and palmitic fatty acids in the soap and also on the amounts of the unsaturated fatty acids (oleic, linoleic, linolenic). Superfat might alter that quality somewhat, but if your soap lather is "thin", there are better solutions to this than just raising the superfat.

Soap doesn't condition; it cleans. You can make a milder/gentler soap versus a harsher cleansing soap, but you can't make a "conditioning" or "moisturizing" soap.
 
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The terms used in soap calc should be taken with a grain of salt. DeeAnna explains it well on her site: Soapcalc numbers | Soapy Stuff
Thanks - DeeAnna's article is awesome!

The "numbers" are based on the total amounts of the fatty acids in the soap. It doesn't matter whether the fatty acids are saponified or not. That's why the numbers don't change if you change the % of superfat.

If the numbers changed based on the superfat, then the calc developers would need to know how much of each fatty acid will saponify, because fatty acids don't saponify evenly. That's chemistry far beyond the scope of what's reasonable to include in a soap recipe c@lc.

AliOop is correct, however, that the "numbers" are based only on the fatty acids in the recipe -- the numbers don't include the effect of additives.

The common thinking isn't necessarily true that a higher superfat = milder (or more conditioning) soap. Many soap makers including myself routinely use "low" superfats of 1-3% and get good results.

It is true that a high superfat is sometimes needed to "tame" a soap that otherwise would be a harsh cleanser -- a 100% coconut oil soap with 20% superfat is a good example.

But if you formulate a recipe to have a more balanced fatty acid profile, the soap can be gentle and mild to the skin even with a lower superfat. And the side benefit of less superfat is more abundant lather -- extra fat is a lather killer.

The creamy quality of lather is based mostly on the percentage of stearic and palmitic fatty acids in the soap and also on the amounts of the unsaturated fatty acids (oleic, linoleic, linolenic). Superfat might alter that quality somewhat, but if your soap lather is "thin", there are better solutions to this than just raising the superfat.

Soap doesn't condition; it cleans. You can make a milder/gentler soap versus a harsher cleansing soap, but you can't make a "conditioning" or "moisturizing" soap.
DeeAnna - Thanks so much! I learned a LOT!
 
I am one of the soapmakers that regularly soaps with a low superfat of 1-3% my average being 2% except for brine and salt bars. My CO/PKO combination is 15-18% and still lathers well with sorbitol and chelators added. I never liked bathing with high superfat soaps, due to the feeling oily, and neither did my plumbing.
 
Thanks for clarifying, @DeeAnna, that makes sense! EDIT: am I correct in thinking that because the results are based solely on all the FAs in the recipe, then the calculator's suggested results will decrease in accuracy as the SF increases? My thought is that the behavior of those FAs is different depending on whether they are saponified or not. CO is the prime example of being moisturizing before saponification, and cleansing after saponification. So if the calculator is considering all of the CO in a recipe, but a good percentage of that remains unsaponified as SF, then the calculator's results will be off.

@cmzaha quite awhile back, you encouraged me to switch to 2-3% SF, and I've been very happy with the results: less grease on the soapy dishes, way less soap scum, lower material costs per bar - and ZERO negative impact on my finished soap. I've never had plumbing problems, but I have no doubt that it helps with those too. Except for my 100% CO salt soaps, I won't ever go back to high SF.
 
@AliOop -- Yep, I agree with you -- the fatty acid profile of the soap won't be as accurate as the superfat goes higher. I'd think the differences would be most obvious if a person was making high superfat soap -- say 10% superfat or higher. Not sure I'd lose any sleep over this if the superfat is lower than that.
 
Is there a place on this forum where people (like you!) have posted their favorite recipes?
 
I'm not sure who you're talking to, @BARJRD but I'll chime in with my thoughts --

There is a forum for recipes -- Soap Making Recipes & Tutorials -- but you're just as likely to see recipes scattered throughout the threads on the various forums. Shave soap recipes in a shave soap thread. Bath soap recipes in a bath soap thread. Etc.

I seldom share recipes, not because I'm protective of them especially, but mainly because I'm more motivated to explain the science of soap making. Sharing recipes is kind of ... um ... routine and uninteresting to me. Also there are tons of decent recipes already out there, so why reinvent the wheel? Anne Watson's soap making books have some good ones as well as excellent tips and advice on making soap safely and well. The Miller Soap website is also a good resource for recipes.

While I'm on that point of finding other people's recipes -- Any time you use someone else's recipe, always verify the numbers by setting it up in a soap recipe c@lculator. Make sure the lye weight is correct for the fats in the recipe and the water content is to your liking. Even the best soap makers make mistakes.
 
I'm not sure who you're talking to, @BARJRD but I'll chime in with my thoughts --

There is a forum for recipes -- Soap Making Recipes & Tutorials -- but you're just as likely to see recipes scattered throughout the threads on the various forums. Shave soap recipes in a shave soap thread. Bath soap recipes in a bath soap thread. Etc.

I seldom share recipes, not because I'm protective of them especially, but mainly because I'm more motivated to explain the science of soap making. Sharing recipes is kind of ... um ... routine and uninteresting to me. Also there are tons of decent recipes already out there, so why reinvent the wheel? Anne Watson's soap making books have some good ones as well as excellent tips and advice on making soap safely and well. The Miller Soap website is also a good resource for recipes.

While I'm on that point of finding other people's recipes -- Any time you use someone else's recipe, always verify the numbers by setting it up in a soap recipe c@lculator. Make sure the lye weight is correct for the fats in the recipe and the water content is to your liking. Even the best soap makers make mistakes.
DeeAnna, what you do is fascinating. I learned SO much from your incredible article about soap qualities. Thanks for pointing out the forum with recipes :)
 
Is there a place on this forum where people (like you!) have posted their favorite recipes?

I suggest spending time reading the forum, and also searching for specific ingredients like rice bran oil or lard. Often those threads will have some formulas. I like to study what other people have done to flesh out my understanding of formulation. Also, Zaney has posted a Trinity of Oils and her no-slime Castille that are good starting points. Ultimately, you have to tweak for yourself.

Hope
 
The terms used in soap calc should be taken with a grain of salt. DeeAnna explains it well on her site: Soapcalc numbers | Soapy Stuff
This is a GREAT article, thanks so much for sharing! I am a newbie and have not understood well enough the fatty acid profiles. I will be rethinking my future recipes based on better knowledge.
 
Does superfatting affect the amount of time emulsion occurs, and the amount of time batter remains thin & runny, or is that a factor of temperature and types of oils used? I ask the question because I am going to start experimenting with micas, where consistency of soap batter is important.
 
Also, Zaney has posted a Trinity of Oils and her no-slime Castille that are good starting points. Ultimately, you have to tweak for yourself.
:thumbs: ;)
I've made a lot of different kind of soaps over 19 years and just recently discovered that what makes a bar feel truly elegant is finding the SF % that best fits the combo of oils used. Unfortunately, there's no rhyme or reason, just intuition at play when I tried different %'s.

For example, I'm addicted to washing my "prune face" with the cold-creamy lather of ZNSC @ 0% SF. Reason? Olive Oil contains "unsponifiables". So some of the oil remains after saponification. I did several test batches before deciding on 0% SF and the 1.7:1 water-to-lye ratio.

NOTE: I also played around with the water-to-lye ratio a bit. 1.5:1 was too hard, i.e., it didn't release the lather quickly enough.

The Basic Trinity of Oils (Coconut, Palm & Olive) has the feel of French Triple Milled Luxury soaps (to my mind at least) at 5% SF (or less) and 38% water as % of oils (Default setting on SoapCalc) Although I used 0% SF when I made it for my DIL's father as a duplicate for his favorite soap he bought online until they stopped making it.

When I sub PKO for the Coconut and adjust the % of each oil for DH's favorite "Palm Olive Hair & Body Shampoo Bar" I use 3% SF. For whatever reason, that bar made his silvery hair shine with NO trace of yellow that occurs with commercial shampoos.

HTH (I hope this helps, or at the very least, releases the mad scientist or kid at play!!!) :nodding:

ETA: 0% SF for liquid soaps. Tried it 3% or less; didn't like it. I don't want any excess oil in my LS and I am OCD about clarity. No opaque LS for me -- except my 50/50 lard & PKO LS -- can't be helped. But it does clear eventually... takes about 6 months. 😁

NOTE: 3% SF is useful for making sure there is no excess lye in the final product. :thumbs:
 
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