Challenge attempt left me with a few q's

[gladysjones]

So. I assume the oil spots are maybe from the color not being mixed in well? Also I added powdered sugar bc from whet I understand it increases lather and hardens the bar. Which I think it did so far (hardened well enough, haven't tested lather) but is that what contributed to it tracing so fast too? I used 'natural ' colorants and no fo or eo whatsoever. Colors were turmeric, paprika, a powdered greens mix, and cocoa powder. Oils were oo, canola, grapeseed, and some castor 8% I think. I used smf but forgot to hit save button and lost it.(wish it would save automatically periodically like other programs do) but oh well. Anyhow here are the pics. I was pleasantly surprised when I cut into it. Love the colors! Hope they stay. It was gelled.
Edit. I should add the reason I didn't mix colors in well is bc it got instantly goopy. I didn't want to sb anymore.

 

[earlene]

So. I assume the oil spots are maybe from the color not being mixed in well? Also I added powdered sugar bc from whet I understand it increases lather and hardens the bar. Which I think it did so far (hardened well enough, haven't tested lather) but is that what contributed to it tracing so fast too? I used 'natural ' colorants and no fo or eo whatsoever. Colors were turmeric, paprika, a powdered greens mix, and cocoa powder. Oils were oo, canola, grapeseed, and some castor 8% I think. I used smf but forgot to hit save button and lost it.(wish it would save automatically periodically like other programs do) but oh well. Anyhow here are the pics. I was pleasantly surprised when I cut into it. Love the colors! Hope they stay. It was gelled.
Edit. I should add the reason I didn't mix colors in well is bc it got instantly goopy. I didn't want to sb anymore.

Powdered sugar contains anti-caking agents, typically cornstarch. Cornstarch is a thickening agent in cooking. Ergo, it probably played a part in your faster trace. If you used cornstarch-free powdered sugar & it contained tapioca as a caking agent, that too is also a thickener.

Other possibilities: higher temperature (sugar increases temperature), too much stick blending, lye not cooled enough, olive oil was pomace rather than non-pomace olive oil (pomace traces faster), Castor Oil can also speed trace, so in combination of other factors...

What was your batch size? How much powdered sugar did you add? When did you add the sugar? Was the Olive Oil pomace or non-pomace? IF the OO was pomace, how much did you use (a lot versus a tiny amount)?

Just a few thoughts.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

@asweetsavour
Oof, yes, that looks like at the limit of what one can still call “thick trace”. No wonder that your OPW swirl disappointed you with such a thick batter.
Have I understood you correctly that you have no “hard” oils in there? This should have been a pain to get to thin trace already, how long did you stick-blend? What was your lye concentration? Have you whisked the sugar into the batter as a powder, or dissolved it into the lye? And how much?
For the colours, you can just branch off a bit of your oil mix (before adding lye), and you have plenty of time to pre-disperse the colourants within the individual colour pots. Once your batter is at stable emulsion/light trace, distribute it over these pots and give them a whisk, to get smooth dispersion without additional SBing.

@earlene
I'm always baffled when I recall that Americans have starch in their powdered sugar, but that's the little differences across the pond… That starch/flour discussion popped up just recently in the Triple Rice thread too (with @nativedan). As far as I understand, below 55°C, starch doesn't gelatinise and is just another suspended solid with negligible impact on viscosity of the aqueous phase. Not until >60°C (intense gelling, CPOP, or HP), it binds a lot of water and thickens the solution. I wonder how much starch gets into the soap batter at typical sugar additions, if it matters at all from the mere numbers.

 

[SPowers]

I'm in Canada and wonder if there is starch in our powdered sugar? I use it my soap all the time only b/c it's easier to make sure it's properly dissolved but I've never had an issue with acceleration as a result.

The batter in the pot looks almost oily to m but perhaps it's just the photo?

 

[gladysjones]

Powdered sugar contains anti-caking agents, typically cornstarch. Cornstarch is a thickening agent in cooking. Ergo, it probably played a part in your faster trace. If you used cornstarch-free powdered sugar & it contained tapioca as a caking agent, that too is also a thickener.

Yes. It does have cornstarch in it. But at such a nominal amount I can't imagine it would've made such an impact. But definitely a culprit. I think of when I am making gravy or some such how much is needed to add. Makes me think it shouldn't thicken a whole batch of soap that significantly. But I have been wrong before.

Other possibilities: higher temperature (sugar increases temperature), too much stick blending, lye not cooled enough, olive oil was pomace rather than non-pomace olive oil (pomace traces faster), Castor Oil can also speed trace, so in combination of other factors...

It was at a higher temp. I don't use a thermometer tho so I couldn't tell you exactly, I just go by the warmth of the outside of the bowls (crazy I know)
And I'm an impatient one so I heat up the oils until they are comparable to the lye then I go for it. Another mistake I'll note for today when I make my 2nd and final attempt. the olive oil was 'classic' olive oil from Walmart great value brand. Not sure if that is pomace. It was not evoo.

What was your batch size? How much powdered sugar did you add? When did you add the sugar? Was the Olive Oil pomace or non-pomace? IF the OO was pomace, how much did you use (a lot versus a tiny amount)?

Just a few thoughts.

Batch size was hmm 43.2 Oz of oil. I forget total size, and 1T powdered sugar added to the lye. I was going for approx 1t per lb of oil. I'm trying to recall how much of the oils were olive. I know the castor was at 8% bc I was trying to give the lather a bump, the rest of the bulk was oo and canola. Then a smaller portion of grapeseed. I wish I had remembered to save my recipe. I'm kicking myself for that. Ty for you for your help.

@asweetsavour
Oof, yes, that looks like at the limit of what one can still call “thick trace”. No wonder that your OPW swirl disappointed you with such a thick batter.
Have I understood you correctly that you have no “hard” oils in there? This should have been a pain to get to thin trace already, how long did you stick-blend? What was your lye concentration? Have you whisked the sugar into the batter as a powder, or dissolved it into the lye? And how much?
For the colours, you can just branch off a bit of your oil mix (before adding lye), and you have plenty of time to pre-disperse the colourants within the individual colour pots. Once your batter is at stable emulsion/light trace, distribute it over these pots and give them a whisk, to get smooth dispersion without additional SBing.

Nope. No hard oils. I'm not a fan of the coconut oils drying effect for me personally and I am not selling so I wanted to make a gentle soap I can be sure about using up. If I don't give it away. Aside from that I'm a grocery store soaper. So nothing fancy for me, although I do need to venture to the animal fats at some point. Just haven't been able to take the leap of using animal fats on my skin. Kinda gives me the heeby jeeby's.

I sb for maybe a 30 seconds. Seriously not exaggerating. It came on so quick by the time I realized it was too late. I did a water discount at I think 25% I may have gone down to 20% but not sure. I dissolved the 1Tablespoon powdered sugar into the lye. Ahh. Yes I need to do that premixing into the oils. Ty! I will definitely do that today.

@SPowers maybe..? I superfatted at 5%

 

[dibbles]

FWIW I use powdered sugar (or granulated sugar) frequently and don't find it to cause acceleration. I'm not saying it couldn't, just that in my experience it hasn't. I do soap quite a bit cooler too. I dissolve the sugar in some of the batch water before adding the lye. I would look more at temps and castor as the culprits - also pomace OO, but you didn't use that.

 

[earlene]

Then it sounds like basically heat and possibly over stick blending, which raises the heat along with the sugar. Then again, I didn't ask if any of the colored portions where thicker than others and how you mixed the colors.

I have noticed that some powdered colorants, natural and synthetic, do thicken the soap batter more than others. And when I add them after trace, then SB to get them well mixed, I end up with pretty thick batter for those particular colors. If you mixed the color additives into the batter after trace, instead of at emulsion, and SB'd that might have been another factor.

Oh, and no, that Walmart OO is not pomace, nor is it EVOO, as that is usually labeled as such.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

When you dissolve the sugar in the water anyway, there is no reason (except impatience) to use powdered sugar. That rules out starch as a culprit (it might well be that the lye got so hot from dissolving the NaOH that the starch gelled). Some professional qualities of confectioner's sugar have also a fat coating that is meant to prevent soaking, but might interfere with lye and saponification in strange ways.

How long did you let the loaf stand until you could unmould and cut it?

 

[gladysjones]

When you dissolve the sugar in the water anyway, there is no reason (except impatience) to use powdered sugar. That rules out starch as a culprit (it might well be that the lye got so hot from dissolving the NaOH that the starch gelled). Some professional qualities of confectioner's sugar have also a fat coating that is meant to prevent soaking, but might interfere with lye and saponification in strange ways.

How long did you let the loaf stand until you could unmould and cut it?

About 24 hrs. Maybe 27 ish to be exact. The p. Sugar did gel up a bit in the lye mixture. Maybe it would be a better idea to add white sugar instead of powdered?

@earlene , I have a feeling heat had something to do with it. One thing I'll do differently amongst the others. I only sb the entire batch as a whole. I don't believe the colorants had any effect.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

About 24 hrs. Maybe 27 ish to be exact.

Wow. I personally wouldn't dare unmould/cut such a soft recipe after less than two days. But as you mentioned, heat can make a big difference.

The p. Sugar did gel up a bit in the lye mixture. Maybe it would be a better idea to add white sugar instead of powdered?

Yes, that sounds like the starch gelatinised. Lye solution is just a bit more viscous than water, and a few %ppo sugar shouldn't be noticeable, except when the starch did something to it. This doesn't need to be a bad thing (quick emulsion/less SBing, fast hardness & cure, bubbly lather), like demonstrated with triple rice soap.
Granulated (additive-free) sugar would be a better choice. You can still add starchy additions in a controlled way.

 

[GemstonePony]

In my last batch of soap (2lbs), I used 2 tsp powdered sugar, and then threw in another tsp of corn starch for good measure. While the lye mixture did thicken into a marvelous sauce, the FO and recipe behaved as normal, and I spent a good 45 minutes putting it in the mold (complicated design).
And in my high oatmeal soap, the lye/oat solution turns into taffy and has to be removed with a wooden stick because a spatula isn't stiff enough, and that traces really slowly (gave me a nice, thin pour), so I wouldn't assume high starch/thick lye solution results in acceleration.
That's not to say it couldn't have had some impact, but powdered sugar by itself shouldn't have quickly brought you to thick trace.

 

[gladysjones]

Well by God's grace and y'alls help, my 2nd attempt went much better. It's cpopping now. Was still too thick but waaay better. Still traced pretty quick.. I won't post pics in case I can use it for the challenge. I used white sugar, and premixed the colors in oil. And waited til it was barely warm to the touch to mix. Thank you all for your help

 

[Tara_H]

When you dissolve the sugar in the water anyway, there is no reason (except impatience) to use powdered sugar.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but I've been adding sugar in the form of simple syrup (pre-mixed 1:1 solution) with no issues, is there any reason not to do it that way? I do subtract the water from the total water so it should all work out correct.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

@asweetsavour
Great to hear! I'm very curious how it'll turn out. Still a bit of a mystery why your soap traced so quickly, but the main thing is that you know how to deal with it, and you're happy with the outcome.

@Tara_H
Syrup sounds very reasonable. YMMV, I'm not a sugar-in-soap expert (I skipped cane/beet sugar altogether and immediately got hooked to sorbitol). The only slight downside that I could imagine is when the syrup is cooked, some of the sucrose molecules get cleaved (invert sugar), so you have a bit of free fructose. For jam, beverages, halva, marzipan etc. this is intentional (increased sweetness, less prone to crystallise), but in soap that might cause a bit of discolouration (like honey does).

 

[Tara_H]

Ah good point; I've only started doing this after masterbatching my lye, so it's all at room temperature, but a couple of times it's been a little warmer and I've got a slightly caramel colour. Makes sense.

 

[earlene]

When you dissolve the sugar in the water anyway, there is no reason (except impatience) to use powdered sugar. That rules out starch as a culprit (it might well be that the lye got so hot from dissolving the NaOH that the starch gelled). Some professional qualities of confectioner's sugar have also a fat coating that is meant to prevent soaking, but might interfere with lye and saponification in strange ways.

How long did you let the loaf stand until you could unmould and cut it?

Well, I think there certainly can be a good reason to use powdered sugar. For example, I have loads of powdered sugar that I have no other use for (I don't cook with it because I don't like sweets), so my plan is to start using it in soap. I just haven't got around to it as yet. One of these days .....

 

[GemstonePony]

When you dissolve the sugar in the water anyway, there is no reason (except impatience) to use powdered sugar.

A number of US soapers feel powdered sugar gives better/different bubbles than plain sugar, honey, or sorbitol, possibly due to the cornstarch component in most US Powdered Sugar products. If your powdered sugar is just sugar, your statement is true, but since the OP is from the US, it's possible that the starch element of powdered sugar would have altered the lather of their soap (noticeably or not is another discussion).

 

[TheGecko]

When you dissolve the sugar in the water anyway, there is no reason (except impatience) to use powdered sugar.

Agree. It doesn't take that much time or work to dissolve a teaspoon of sugar in a few ounces of water. In fact, using Distilled Water you can make up a 'Simple Syrup' (two parts sugar, one part water) and keep it in your frig or make ice cubes with it. I do 'ice cubes' with herbs and garlic in olive oil or butter and then bag and label them up and put in a large Freezer Mate.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

@GemstonePony
Yes. Still I'd prefer stirring my own amount of cornstarch into the oils than relying on powdered sugar to bring appropriate amounts (and to possibly gelatinise in hot lye). That's something that works on both sides of the Atlantic.

@TheGecko
Garlic soap?

 

[TheGecko]

Garlic soap?

Noooooo...for cooking. I love using fresh herbs, garlic and other assorted fresh items, but I dislike waste and shopping even more. So I will buy bunches of herbs, garlic, celery, peppers, etc and some dry ice (flash freezing). I will then spend the day sorting and chopping, flash freeze (paper lined baking sheets in a cooler with dry ice) fruits and veggies, or mixing herbs and garlic with either water, EVOO or butter, freezing it into cubes...and then bagging and labeling everything and storing it in a few large Freezer Mate (Tupperware) containers in the freezer in the garage.