Can you use both ROE and Sodium citrate when making soaps?

[penelopejane]

Hi there. Thank you for all the suggestions. I have my soaps in a room that is dark. I have a dehumidifier( the dehumidifier does make the room warmer). I have the soaps sitting on plastic shelving that I line with parchment paper. I am using a ceramic crock pot. The molds I use I actually have bought brand new and still, my soaps went rancid. This is truly a conundrum. Yet I have followed the same exact steps and had some batches turn out fine. I just cannot figure it out. I do have to mix the ROE in when I am making my soaps. I cannot add it to the oils as they are solidified until I melt them. I have a tiny jewelers scale, but it won't pick up the right amount because it is such a small amount. I will check out the scale you mentioned though. I have even changed my recipe using soapcalc and added less water and more lye to lower the superfat and still have the same issue. I only this recipe because I react to all the other oils and stuff. I am definitely careful with not handling the soaps without using gloves too. I honestly am at a loss. Oh, what do you use to measure your ROE out with? What do you place it in to measure it out?

It is very annoying. Does your soap storage room stay cool?
I saw on another thread that you only have this problem in summer - that suggests a problem with heat to me.
Have you tried scrubbing your molds with bleach in between each batch?

 

[penelopejane]

I also have a lot of allergies and neither EDTA nor Sodium in such small percentages bothers me. Both ingredients come in many over-the-counter products. The issue with ROE is it is a great antioxidant but it is not a chelator. I do not add ROE to my soaps only to my liquid oils when I open them because I purchased 35lb totes at a time and usually multiple oils.

I tried Sodium Citrate for several years but found it did not work as well as my EDTA/SG combination. Sometimes it takes testing to find what combination works. Maybe try SC and SG. I had no success with SC and ROE. But EDTA did work okay alone I just like the combo better. I am guessing SG will work ok alone at the higher percentage for hard water.

Yes, I agree, everyone's skin is different and everyone's soaping room and recipe is different. I guess we have to work out what suits our skin, our soaping philosophy and our environment.

 

[Jen74]

It is very annoying. Does your soap storage room stay cool?
I saw on another thread that you only have this problem in summer - that suggests a problem with heat to me.
Have you tried scrubbing your molds with bleach in between each batch?

Well that is just it, I am having this issue now and it's wintertime. The room they stay in is dark. The room does get a little warm only because of the dehumidifier I have running. I also have a fan going that blows on the soaps as well, I do clean the molds very well. However, I thought maybe that was an issue too and bought new molds and still having this issue with the rancidity. So frustrating for sure.

 

[penelopejane]

Well that is just it, I am having this issue now and it's wintertime. The room they stay in is dark. The room does get a little warm only because of the dehumidifier I have running. I also have a fan going that blows on the soaps as well, I do clean the molds very well. However, I thought maybe that was an issue too and bought new molds and still having this issue with the rancidity. So frustrating for sure.

Sorry I can’t help more.
My soap room has free flowing air and is cool - no sun ever and it’s on the cold side of the house.
I wouldn’t blow a fan directly on curing soap. Blowing it around the room is probably ok.
Your room must be pretty small if the dehumidifier heats it up.

All I know is that I went for years without DOS problems then I got a DOS batch and I changed my hygiene routine, went with ROE and citric acid and no problem for ages. Then I made some decorative silicone mats to fit in the bottom of a mold. I scrub them clean after demoulding. If I don’t scrub those mats with bleach and a toothbrush and rinse thoroughly JUST before I use them again I get DOS. Also, I only touch them with gloves. I don’t know if it’s the type of silicone (I bought the right type for soap supposedly) or the intricate decorative pattern or what but that’s solved the problem for me. Touch wood.

 

[Jen74]

Sorry I can’t help more.
My soap room has free flowing air and is cool - no sun ever and it’s on the cold side of the house.
I wouldn’t blow a fan directly on curing soap. Blowing it around the room is probably ok.
Your room must be pretty small if the dehumidifier heats it up.

All I know is that I went for years without DOS problems then I got a DOS batch and I changed my hygiene routine, went with ROE and citric acid and no problem for ages. Then I made some decorative silicone mats to fit in the bottom of a mold. I scrub them clean after demoulding. If I don’t scrub those mats with bleach and a toothbrush and rinse thoroughly JUST before I use them again I get DOS. Also, I only touch them with gloves. I don’t know if it’s the type of silicone (I bought the right type for soap supposedly) or the intricate decorative pattern or what but that’s solved the problem for me. Touch wood.

Thank you for the info. I'm guessing you add your ROE to your bottle oils? I have been adding a drop or two to my soap batch because I can't add it up my oils as they are solid. I know your supposed to weigh the ROE you add to soap, but it's hard because it's such a tiny amount. I have a jewelers scale, but it still wasn't able to weigh it. Do you have any suggestions on how how to know what amount of ROE to use in a soap batch and what to put it in to weigh it even since it's such a tiny amount?

 

[penelopejane]

Thank you for the info. I'm guessing you add your ROE to your bottle oils? I have been adding a drop or two to my soap batch because I can't add it up my oils as they are solid. I know your supposed to weigh the ROE you add to soap, but it's hard because it's such a tiny amount. I have a jewelers scale, but it still wasn't able to weigh it. Do you have any suggestions on how how to know what amount of ROE to use in a soap batch and what to put it in to weigh it even since it's such a tiny amount?

What is the total weight of oils a typical batch?
And how much carnosic acid is there in your ROE?

 

[Jen74]

What is the total weight of oils a typical batch?
And how much carnosic acid is there in your ROE?

I get my ROE from lotion crafters. Their website states that their ROE is 7% Carnosic acid. my batch of soaps are usually 2 pounds. I use 0.4 pounds of palm kernel oil and 1.6 pounds of palm oil.

 

[penelopejane]

Sorry it too me so long to respond.
2 lb = 900g of oils
The minimum you should use is 0.05% of oils but you can use (Kevin Dunn - author of "Scientific Soapmaking" suggests) 0.1%
So the maths is:
oil in grams x 0.05 = X/100 = grams of ROE to use
900 x 0.05 = 45/100 = 0.45g (half a gram)

oil in grams x 0.1 = Y/100 = grams of ROE to use I USE THIS AMOUNT
900 x 0.1 = 9/100= 0.9g (about a gram)
These numbers are based on a ROE with 5% to 7% carnosic acid. If the carnosic acid content in your ROE is lower than that, then adjust the dosage accordingly.

What you can do with your jewelers scale if it can't measure small amounts is to measure out 1 tsp of ROE and see what that weighs and work out from there is you should use 1/8th or 1/16th of a tsp or less. I'd personally go a little tiny bit over than a little under.

See DeeAnna's notes for more thorough explanation.

 

[Jen74]

Sorry it too me so long to respond.
2 lb = 900g of oils
The minimum you should use is 0.05% of oils but you can use (Kevin Dunn - author of "Scientific Soapmaking" suggests) 0.1%
So the maths is:
oil in grams x 0.05 = X/100 = grams of ROE to use
900 x 0.05 = 45/100 = 0.45g (half a gram)

oil in grams x 0.1 = Y/100 = grams of ROE to use I USE THIS AMOUNT
900 x 0.1 = 9/100= 0.9g (about a gram)
These numbers are based on a ROE with 5% to 7% carnosic acid. If the carnosic acid content in your ROE is lower than that, then adjust the dosage accordingly.

What you can do with your jewelers scale if it can't measure small amounts is to measure out 1 tsp of ROE and see what that weighs and work out from there is you should use 1/8th or 1/16th of a tsp or less. I'd personally go a little tiny bit over than a little under.

See DeeAnna's notes for more thorough explanation.

Thank you so much for the information, I really appreciate it