Can this be made more moisturizing?

[ewhitake]

Working on a facial soap that is very moisturizing. My current recipe is:
Liquid used - Donkey Milk
5% Castor
12% CO
19% Rice Bran Oil
5% Jojoba
59% Lard
8% SF
33% Lye Concentration

I've change the oil proportions up and down but it doesn't change the fatty acid profiles much.
Maybe this is a white whale?

 

[Obsidian]

Soap isn't moisturizing, its cleansing. if you want a gentler soap then try lowering the cleansing number.
One of my recipes is 60% lard, 10% coconut, 5% castor, 25% sunflower or similiar.

I use 3% - 5% superfat, used to use more but it didn't help my dry skin at all. With a recipe designed for your skin, you won't need a high SF.

 

[ewhitake]

Soap isn't moisturizing, its cleansing. if you want a gentler soap then try lowering the cleansing number.
One of my recipes is 60% lard, 10% coconut, 5% castor, 25% sunflower or similiar.

I use 3% - 5% superfat, used to use more but it didn't help my dry skin at all. With a recipe designed for your skin, you won't need a high SF.

Thank you for your response. I used the wrong word or phrase. I should have said less drying rather than moisturizing
And I have been trying to lower the cleansing number. And adjusting the SF. New soaper Whether to lower or raise the SF always confuses me. Can I assume with a large heavy soap the super fat number would come down? Or is it a personal preference?

 

[DeeAnna]

The cleansing number will not change if you raise or lower the superfat. The cleansing number (or any of the Soapcalc "numbers") only changes when you change the fatty acid percentages in the recipe.

Raising the superfat is not an automatic solution for making all soap recipes milder to the skin. It Your recipe is already pretty mild with a good range of fatty acids, so a high superfat for this recipe will only leave more free fat in the soap. That will definitely reduce the lather, may increase the scum in your shower or bathtub especially if your water is moderately to very hard, and may increase the chance your soap will go rancid more quickly. But raising the superfat won't necessarily increase the mildness for this particular recipe.

In your case, I agree with Obsidian -- I'd reduce the cleansing number. That means reducing the fat(s) that are rich in lauric and myristic fatty acids. In other words, I'd reduce the % of coconut oil in your recipe to lower those two fatty acids. Changing the % of the other fats won't do a lot -- it's the % of coconut oil that's the key here.

Another thing too is to be sure to cure the soap properly -- that will also help increase the mildness.

 

[ewhitake]

The cleansing number will not change if you raise or lower the superfat. The cleansing number (or any of the Soapcalc "numbers") only changes when you change the fatty acid percentages in the recipe.

Raising the superfat is not an automatic solution for making all soap recipes milder to the skin. It Your recipe is already pretty mild with a good range of fatty acids, so a high superfat for this recipe will only leave more free fat in the soap. That will definitely reduce the lather, may increase the scum in your shower or bathtub especially if your water is moderately to very hard, and may increase the chance your soap will go rancid more quickly. But raising the superfat won't necessarily increase the mildness for this particular recipe.

In your case, I agree with Obsidian -- I'd reduce the cleansing number. That means reducing the fat(s) that are rich in lauric and myristic fatty acids. In other words, I'd reduce the % of coconut oil in your recipe to lower those two fatty acids. Changing the % of the other fats won't do a lot -- it's the % of coconut oil that's the key here.

Another thing too is to be sure to cure the soap properly -- that will also help increase the mildness.

Thanks @DeeAnna and @Obsidian! Is this more along the lines you all had in mind?

 

[Iluminameluna]

If I may?
If you're a new soaper, may I ask how many established recipes, meaning recipes published by "veteran" or "experienced" soapers, you've made?
I ask because many times new soapers want to create "new" soap recipes to remedy or fix skin conditions that REAL soap just can't.
And also, by reading the different referred recipes you get the idea of what happens when you increase the different oils & fats in those very basic recipes.
Once you get familiar w/ those recipes, you can start making your own adjustments & substitutions. And you'll find out exactly why, where, what, & why it is that ppl add/don't add certain ingredients to a soap recipe. Or this process but not that one. Etc.
I for one, spent over a year just watching YT videos, & reading blogs, & finally this forum, before I EVER made a recipe from Soaping101.com. And believe me, I made it EXACTLY as written, w/ the cheapest of equipment (took me almost 6 months to get those together bcs of budget issues), & it shocked me it came out so well. It also showed me how inadequate my little efficiency apt was bcs my eyes BURNED for a week from the fumes of the curing soap. I hadn't counted on the fact that there weren't ANY windows I could open... Anyway, my Nanny was overjoyed w/ that first batch, & requested more. That was in 2014, & the addiction/obsession has continued. Only slowed by ill health or really bad weather, or both.
So, take this story as you will. I hope it helps.
your !!

 

[ewhitake]

If I may?
If you're a new soaper, may I ask how many established recipes, meaning recipes published by "veteran" or "experienced" soapers, you've made?
I ask because many times new soapers want to create "new" soap recipes to remedy or fix skin conditions that REAL soap just can't.
And also, by reading the different referred recipes you get the idea of what happens when you increase the different oils & fats in those very basic recipes.
Once you get familiar w/ those recipes, you can start making your own adjustments & substitutions. And you'll find out exactly why, where, what, & why it is that ppl add/don't add certain ingredients to a soap recipe. Or this process but not that one. Etc.
I for one, spent over a year just watching YT videos, & reading blogs, & finally this forum, before I EVER made a recipe from Soaping101.com. And believe me, I made it EXACTLY as written, w/ the cheapest of equipment (took me almost 6 months to get those together bcs of budget issues), & it shocked me it came out so well. It also showed me how inadequate my little efficiency apt was bcs my eyes BURNED for a week from the fumes of the curing soap. I hadn't counted on the fact that there weren't ANY windows I could open... Anyway, my Nanny was overjoyed w/ that first batch, & requested more. That was in 2014, & the addiction/obsession has continued. Only slowed by ill health or really bad weather, or both.
So, take this story as you will. I hope it helps.
your !!

Thanks for the question and advise! We've taken relatively the same journey. I call myself a new soaper because I've only been making soap since May. But I've been lurking around soap making (reading and watching video) for several years before taking the plunge. My first soap was MP and I've recently moved to CP. I started out my CP adventures by making a few recipes from Brambleberry,Tea Tree and Holly's Soap Making. Making those showed me what I didn't like in a soap. Using them as a base line I'm moving to things I do like.
The recipe above is my attempt to recreate an MP soap I made for myself a few years back in CP.

 

[Obsidian]

Thanks @DeeAnna and @Obsidian! Is this more along the lines you all had in mind?

2 is a really low cleansing number, it will be a very mild soap.
I'd also suggest leaving out the more expensive oils for now, like the marula and jojoba. Most oils at 5% won't add much, castor is the exception.
Get a simple basic recipe down then start experimenting.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Prior to this recipe, what's the lowest amount of CO you have used in a recipe? If it was 20% and that was too drying, try 10% for this recipe and see how you go with that. And prior to this recipe, what was the amount of superfat you used? If it was 5%, I would keep it at 5% while you make this one change to your CO amount. If you find that 10% CO is still too drying, then I would at changing your superfat to 7%. The reason being, if you make BOTH changes at the one time, you will never know which of them contributed to the best 'feel' of the the soap.
I've never used lard - but I would be wary of having to high a superfat when using lard. I just don't like the thought of it being too fatty.
Why not try apricot kernel oil or sweet almond oil as an alternative to jojoba/marula. They must be very expensive and the jury is out on whether they really do much to help when used in a soap. The aforementioned are both nice on the skin and will provide oleic oil at a fraction of the cost.

 

[AliOop]

I'd also suggest leaving out the more expensive oils for now, like the marula and jojoba. Most oils at 5% won't add much, castor is the exception.

Yup, save those expensive and amazing ingredients for lotions, serums, etc. Then they will not be ruined by lye, and they can remain on the skin longer than the few moments we get before soap bubbles are washed away.

 

[ewhitake]

Prior to this recipe, what's the lowest amount of CO you have used in a recipe? If it was 20% and that was too drying, try 10% for this recipe and see how you go with that. And prior to this recipe, what was the amount of superfat you used? If it was 5%, I would keep it at 5% while you make this one change to your CO amount. If you find that 10% CO is still too drying, then I would at changing your superfat to 7%. The reason being, if you make BOTH changes at the one time, you will never know which of them contributed to the best 'feel' of the the soap.
I've never used lard - but I would be wary of having to high a superfat when using lard. I just don't like the thought of it being too fatty.
Why not try apricot kernel oil or sweet almond oil as an alternative to jojoba/marula. They must be very expensive and the jury is out on whether they really do much to help when used in a soap. The aforementioned are both nice on the skin and will provide oleic oil at a fraction of the cost.

10% CO is too drying for what I'm after. I've used 12, 10. and 5 percent. I like 10% for a body soap.
Jojoba/marula I had on hand and just wanted to use up but I've made a recipe with sweet Almond that gives me the same results.
From everything I've read, soap will still "clean" even at a very low level of Lauric and Myristic acids. So I thought getting these numbers low while increasing Oleic would be less drying.
Your point about changing one thing at a time is something I'm totally guilty of not doing. I need to start doing that!

 

[KiwiMoose]

10% CO is too drying for what I'm after. I've used 12, 10. and 5 percent. I like 10% for a body soap.
Jojoba/marula I had on hand and just wanted to use up but I've made a recipe with sweet Almond that gives me the same results.
From everything I've read, soap will still "clean" even at a very low level of Lauric and Myristic acids. So I thought getting these numbers low while increasing Oleic would be less drying.
Your point about changing one thing at a time is something I'm totally guilty of not doing. I need to start doing that!

Try adding a bit of sugar to increase bubbles too.

 

[cmzaha]

If you are finding CO in soap to drying have you tried 100% SAO? It will not lather one tiny bit without a long cure of at least 6 months but it makes a great soap with a 2% superfat. I make it using dual lye at 95/5% NaOH/KOH, Sodium Gluconate, and EDTA at 0.5% each as my chelators. Other than a high shea butter soap (60%) it is the only soap I consider using on my face. I also add in Sorbitol at 1.1% batch weight which goes in all my soaps. You do not want a higher superfat for this soap if you want it to lather and it does not need a higher superfat. In fact I very seldom use over 2% in any soap. I have tried 100% Avocado Oil soap since I absolutely adore Avocado Oil in soap but it will not lather even with a 1-year cure so it is a waste of money to use much over 20%, IMO, since it adds a very nice feel at 20% and is quite expensive. Just something else to try.

 

[ewhitake]

If you are finding CO in soap to drying have you tried 100% SAO? It will not lather one tiny bit without a long cure of at least 6 months but it makes a great soap with a 2% superfat. I make it using dual lye at 95/5% NaOH/KOH, Sodium Gluconate, and EDTA at 0.5% each as my chelators. Other than a high shea butter soap (60%) it is the only soap I consider using on my face. I also add in Sorbitol at 1.1% batch weight which goes in all my soaps. You do not want a higher superfat for this soap if you want it to lather and it does not need a higher superfat. In fact I very seldom use over 2% in any soap. I have tried 100% Avocado Oil soap since I absolutely adore Avocado Oil in soap but it will not lather even with a 1-year cure so it is a waste of money to use much over 20%, IMO, since it adds a very nice feel at 20% and is quite expensive. Just something else to try.

My current iteration has 5% CO and I’ve substituted my more expensive oils for SAO (I’m in the car and don’t have access to my exact formula) at about 10%(?). I add sugar and sodium citrate (I live with hard water) and it bubbles well. Haven’t used it on my face yet though.
The funny thing is, since trying to find a less drying formula for a face soap, I’ve noticed how drying my 20% regular CO soap is. And I’m reformulating everything
My next experiment will be a no CO Oh well! There’s always rebatch

 

[AliOop]

@ewhitake i love all your experiments; thanks for sharing them with us.

If I could recommend one thing, it would be to save a bar or two from the batches you don’t like, and try them again in six months, eight months, etc. You may be amazed at how different they feel - usually much milder, and with better lather.

I learned this after accidentally packing some “meh” soaps away in a spot that I promptly forgot about. When I rediscovered them almost a year later, they were fantastic - so mild and bubbly! But I never would have known had I not let them cure longer.

 

[ewhitake]

@ewhitake i love all your experiments; thanks for sharing them with us.

If I could recommend one thing, it would be to save a bar or two from the batches you don’t like, and try them again in six months, eight months, etc. You may be amazed at how different they feel - usually much milder, and with better lather.

I learned this after accidentally packing some “meh” soaps away in a spot that I promptly forgot about. When I rediscovered them almost a year later, they were fantastic - so mild and bubbly! But I never would have known had I not let them cure longer.

Thank you!! @AliOop I have limited space but I guess I could put a sticky on one bar with the recipe (so I know what I was looking at?) and throw it in a box?
Now to go through my reject box

 

[KiwiMoose]

@ewhitake - Have tried babassu or palm kernel to replace the CO to see if affects you as badly?

 

[ewhitake]

@ewhitake - Have tried babassu or palm kernel to replace the CO to see if affects you as badly?

I've used Babassu and been advised on this forum to forgo it because it's expensive! LOL!! And I just got palm kernel flakes the other day. More experiments to come!!!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I've used Babassu and been advised on this forum to forgo it because it's expensive! LOL!! And I just got palm kernel flakes the other day. More experiments to come!!!

It is expensive, but if you find it more tolerable than CO, it's worth it. Let us know how you get on.

 

[ewhitake]

It is expensive, but if you find it more tolerable than CO, it's worth it. Let us know how you get on.

I think I found a recipe for the mild soap I’m looking for!! After looking at all the recipes that I’ve made, I realize the cleansing number was really high. Like around 15. And the ones that I’ve liked more had a cleansing number lower than 12. So I made a batch with a cleansing number of 10. The lye concentrations was 33. The saturated and unsaturated ratios was 41:59. The lauric and myristic acid being low and the oleic acid being really high. And the super fat was 5%. In this trial, I did use coconut oil in the mix, but at a very low percentage. The loaf is 24 hours old, but I took a piece of it and washed and everything was very mild. I really like the way it bubbled and how it left my skin feeling after 15 minutes. Basically, I think this did the trick!