Best quality ingredients, RBD, organic... questions.

[Missmoneypenny]

Thanks everyone who replied to my queries re animal fats in soap (previous page). My olive, coconut, shea and beef tallow bar is super. I use it at home and love it. I gave another bar to a Muslim friend which simply omitted the tallow and she was very pleased with it. But i realise that just by having it i am excluding lots of potential customers. I live in multicultural London, so that's vegetarians, muslims, hindus and jews out at a swipe! The recipe would probably work very well with palm oil, but I refuse to use that, for my own convictions. The search continues.

 

[loopyloop]

I make vegan-friendly products (with the exception of the honey/oats soap I use to make) for that reason of having a larger audience of customers.



I live in a part of the world where non-animal and quality ingredients is very important.

....and where would that be? Sounds kindda elitist to me, sir.

 

[LunaSkye]

Thanks for the links.

I will continue to use only vegetable-based oils though. I use castor as well. You don't think I'd have an issue just eliminating palm and not replacing it with another oil? Maybe increase coconut a bit more compared to the other oils I increase?

I think I'll start using organic RBD coconut oil. That I can get for $105 for 5 gallons.

The thing about increasing CO is that it may make a the soap too cleansing for some people to use. I remember using a soap made with 25% CO and I really felt the clean, more than I wanted really. You can try including beeswax at 5% max PPO to help make a harder soap. It's an afterthought and it's not a vegan option, but it's a people-friendly option that some customers should know about if they use Burt's Bees products. Then there is Babassu oil, which I'm not too sure about in terms of pricing. It is similar to CO, but is said to be less drying. I think it makes for a nice soap from what I bought.

P.S.: this link may help with other options.

 

[MrDurden]

....and where would that be? Sounds kindda elitist to me, sir.

:yawn:

 

[MrDurden]

The thing about increasing CO is that it may make a the soap too cleansing for some people to use. I remember using a soap made with 25% CO and I really felt the clean, more than I wanted really. You can try including beeswax at 5% max PPO to help make a harder soap. It's an afterthought and it's not a vegan option, but it's a people-friendly option that some customers should know about if they use Burt's Bees products. Then there is Babassu oil, which I'm not too sure about in terms of pricing. It is similar to CO, but is said to be less drying. I think it makes for a nice soap from what I bought.

P.S.: this link may help with other options.

Vegans are silly, but I still want to be able to sell to them, ya know?

Burt's Bees = owned by Clorox. I suggest other brands to people and offer Merry Hempsters organic hemp lip balms myself.

It wasn't cottonseed oil I was meaning before. It was Meadowfoam seed. Apparently large amount of that is grown in my region.

 

[LunaSkye]

Vegans are silly, but I still want to be able to sell to them, ya know?

Burt's Bees = owned by Clorox. I suggest other brands to people and offer Merry Hempsters organic hemp lip balms myself.

It wasn't cottonseed oil I was meaning before. It was Meadowfoam seed. Apparently large amount of that is grown in my region.

Meadowfoam oil is an oil I haven't ever used. I heard that it is good on the skin, but I know nothing else about it.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I find it hard to picture the best quality soap ever when a lot of things being discussed are new to you. If you haven't explored every angle, or even many of them, then it will be a time of many experiments until you can actually claim that. Maybe not ever with this science/art called soaping.

I also wonder what the measurable differences between a soap made with organic oils vs non organic are. What sort of information can you point me to on that topic?

 

[LunaSkye]

I also wonder what the measurable differences between a soap made with organic oils vs non organic are. What sort of information can you point me to on that topic?

I actually like this question. For me, it's all about my preference. For all I know, a lot of crops that are grown could be GMOs. According to US regulations, organic crops are not allowed to be made with any type of GMO whatsoever. That said, I usually try my best to buy organic when I'm not certain that the item in question is GMO-free. Unfortunately, its not always possible to completely avoid certain things, but I'm happy just to be able to avoid most of it.

 

[loopyloop]

:yawn:

Yep, thought so. Thanks for confirming... Classy.

 

[Susie]

Thanks everyone who replied to my queries re animal fats in soap (previous page). My olive, coconut, shea and beef tallow bar is super. I use it at home and love it. I gave another bar to a Muslim friend which simply omitted the tallow and she was very pleased with it. But i realise that just by having it i am excluding lots of potential customers. I live in multicultural London, so that's vegetarians, muslims, hindus and jews out at a swipe! The recipe would probably work very well with palm oil, but I refuse to use that, for my own convictions. The search continues.

I am not sure why tallow would exclude muslims and jewish people. Lard, I could sort of understand, but I have spoken to a rabbi(reformed), and he said it is EATING pork products that would be a problem, not using soap made with pork products. I just do not have a contact among the muslim clergy to ask them, so I can't help there.

 

[Susie]

I actually like this question. For me, it's all about my preference. For all I know, a lot of crops that are grown could be GMOs. According to US regulations, organic crops are not allowed to be made with any type of GMO whatsoever. That said, I usually try my best to buy organic when I'm not certain that the item in question is GMO-free. Unfortunately, its not always possible to completely avoid certain things, but I'm happy just to be able to avoid most of it.

Preference explains everything. You like to make your soap with those ingredients, I like to make my soap my way.

And I can sort of understand not wanting to use GMO foods to eat. Some of those have lost almost all nutritional value in the struggle to get produce to market, and allow for a longer shelf life. I don't really get why GMO would affect quality of soap, but if that is what matters to you, then go for it.

 

[sagehill]

As a retired organic farmer, I avoid GMOs and anything related to Monsanto simply because I ~know~ how much and how often poisons are sprayed on the fields to grow GMOs because I see all of my farming neighbors spraying. Most people do not have a clue as to amounts of toxins sprayed on their food that does not wash off... these are very sound reasons to buy organic as much as possible.

Farmers spray before they plant to prevent emerging weeds, they spray mid-season to keep the next round of weeds down, and they spray again shortly before harvest to knock down the weeds for their combines. And that's just weedkillers... pesticides are sprayed several times a season, too.

Most conventional farmers of a certain age get diseases at a rate far beyond the average population... bone and bowel cancers, liver and bladder tumors, rampant brain tumors, Parkinsons, and that's just off the top of my head. Even the Amish use Roundup, not realizing how bad it is... they believe the advertising that it is relatively harmless.

Maybe the toxins don't come through in the soaping oils, that's not the issue. The issue is, by buying GMO oils, we continue to support the poisonings of fields and food across the world. It's not just in the USA... the Amazon forests and grassland pampas of Argentina are being torn up at a frightening rate, just to grow soy and other GMO crops.

I'll climb down from my anti-GMO soaping box now. http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[pamielynn]

Maybe the toxins don't come through in the soaping oils, that's not the issue. The issue is, by buying GMO oils, we continue to support the poisonings of fields and food across the world. It's not just in the USA... the Amazon forests and grassland pampas of Argentina are being torn up at a frightening rate, just to grow soy and other GMO crops.

This. A GMO plant won't affect your soap, but buying them supports GMO, even if in a tiny way. I don't worry so much that eating GMO corn, in and of itself, will give us an extra arm in the future (that could actually work out well for me ) BUT the amount of pesticide that can be applied to GMO crops is frightening. Plus... Monsanto blows and we should never allow one company to control our food supply. Ever.

This is completely off topic and I apologize, but I'm so anti-Monsanto myself, that I couldn't control my fingers from typing out this reply.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Fortunately, here in the EU it is not a case of choosing between GMO or oganic - there is very few GM products available due to the very strict testing requirements. So I can buy non-GMO without having to shell out for "organic" oils.

 

[pamielynn]

Fortunately, here in the EU it is not a case of choosing between GMO or oganic - there is very few GM products available due to the very strict testing requirements. So I can buy non-GMO without having to shell out for "organic" oils.

When choosing oils for soaping purposes in the US, you don't really need to have organic since most of our GM crops aren't that great for soap, like corn and wheat - but many people like to use soy and canola and for those, you need to buy organic, or you'll probably get GMO crops in your products. I guess I'm just not a Roundup Ready kinda girl, but organic doesn't really seem to add anything much to the QUALITY of a soap - it's just personal preference or label appeal.

 

[LunaSkye]

I am not sure why tallow would exclude muslims and jewish people. Lard, I could sort of understand, but I have spoken to a rabbi(reformed), and he said it is EATING pork products that would be a problem, not using soap made with pork products. I just do not have a contact among the muslim clergy to ask them, so I can't help there.

To my knowledge, items that are kosher and halal are similar, but not exactly the same. I do not have contacts on either side to go deeper, but I rather take the safe-over-sorry road (for anyone): I'll give them the option of what type of soap to try.

I also respect your point of view for GMO oils. My belief stems from the fact that the skin can absorb a lot of things. The leftover oils from the SF would also be absorbed, depending on the oil. I want the best for myself and the people I share my soaps with. So the research begins... whenever I can stop posting on the site.

 

[sassanellat]

I am not sure why tallow would exclude muslims and jewish people. Lard, I could sort of understand, but I have spoken to a rabbi(reformed), and he said it is EATING pork products that would be a problem, not using soap made with pork products. I just do not have a contact among the muslim clergy to ask them, so I can't help there.

LOL! I was just going to say the exact same thing. I understand people who are vegetarian due to animal death sensitivity, but as far as I know, the religious restrictions only apply to *eating*.

 

[sassanellat]

Burt's Bees = owned by Clorox.

While the making of bleach is environmentally messy, and we really need to use less of it in home laundry and cleaning products because there are vastly safer alternatives for home use, a great percentage of humans are alive because of Chlorox bleach. A trip to the doctor's would be vastly scarier, and hospitals? A nightmare. It's cheap, it is a very potent germicidal agent, and it works exceedingly well went used properly. There is no shame in that. And falling under the same corporate umbrella doesn't mean anything.

Burt's Bees products used to be a bit better, but now they mass market, they did compromise here and there. Mostly, I'm extremely jealous they they have access to quite a few natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals that are native to human skin that we can't get for home use.

 

[Susie]

While the making of bleach is environmentally messy, and we really need to use less of it in home laundry and cleaning products because there are vastly safer alternatives for home use, a great percentage of humans are alive because of Chlorox bleach. A trip to the doctor's would be vastly scarier, and hospitals? A nightmare. It's cheap, it is a very potent germicidal agent, and it works exceedingly well went used properly. There is no shame in that. And falling under the same corporate umbrella doesn't mean anything.

Burt's Bees products used to be a bit better, but now they mass market, they did compromise here and there. Mostly, I'm extremely jealous they they have access to quite a few natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals that are native to human skin that we can't get for home use.

Back in the old days hospitals used bleach to clean and disinfect. Now they use other chemicals for the most part. We would be better off using bleach again as the new disinfectants are causing lots of problems. But people's clothes were getting bleached and other complaints saw to the removal of bleach

 

[sassanellat]

And I can sort of understand not wanting to use GMO foods to eat. Some of those have lost almost all nutritional value in the struggle to get produce to market, and allow for a longer shelf life. I don't really get why GMO would affect quality of soap, but if that is what matters to you, then go for it.

Actually, the first part is usually not true or they would never have been approved for food use (yes, there is a committee). Now, if you want to say that about taste, you'd be much more accurate (like tomatoes). But they're fixing that, too. That happens because vitamins are easy, but the small and flavor compounds are very complicated, and in many cases, it's new territory research-wise.

The only real potential of GMOs on soap is that (in a very small number of cases), the engineered part allows increased pesticide/herbicide use on the fields, the traces of which carry over into the food. They are unequivocally a bad idea. Most GMOs are brilliant really - we couldn't feed the world or maintain global health without them.