Best quality ingredients, RBD, organic... questions.

[MrDurden]

I've been making soap for a number of years now, but I'm wanting increase the quality of my ingredients so I can say with confidence I make the best soap I possibly can.

My recipe includes olive, hemp, palm, coconut, and castor oils.

I will be apply for a non-GMO verified label soon and that's not of concern with the oil I use. But organic? I don't ever intend to get a USDA certified organic label myself. I don't want to give the USDA money for me doing the right thing. Oregon Tilth I would like to peruse though.

I'm considering switching my palm and coconut to organic. I have not seen organic olive pomice though. I was planning on changing to that soon in stead of the extra virgin I use now.

I'm a small enough operation that I only buy by the gallon or 5 gallon sizes. But getting close to needing 55 gallon drums. And with the math I've done, the oil price is about half as much when you buy that much. So that might be the best time to switch to organic ingredients.

Palm is an issue as well due to deforestation. But the oil I use is RSPO-certified. But I would like to look into them a little closer. I've heard issues with them (ya know how everyone points fingers)...

Also, what exactly is RBD? I know what it stands for, and I know they don't use actual bleach. What are they doing to it though? And would raw be a better option

/I realize I'm kind of rambling here... Just wanting some input on this topic.

 

[Meganmischke]

I don't know if it is possible to have organic pomace oil since it is solvent extracted. Rbd stands for refined bleached deodorized I believe. Good luck

 

[MrDurden]

I don't know if it is possible to have organic pomace oil since it is solvent extracted. Rbd stands for refined bleached deodorized I believe. Good luck

It would depend on what solvent is used. But that is a good point. I don't think I want to use this stuff anyway if I'm looking for top quality. I still can't find olive oil cheaper than Costco. I might upgrade to their organic oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_pomace_oil

Yes, that's what RBD stands for. But I'm curious as to what they are physically doing to it.

 

[MrDurden]

No input on this?

Is this not something other soap makers think about? Making a top quality product with the best ingredients possible?

 

[Meganmischke]

Most of my soap is made with lard, oo, and co. I do use refined co because the price of virgin is too much for me to justify for wash off products. Your priorities with quality are whatever you make them. I know what I make use the best quality within reason.

 

[Missmoneypenny]

Megan do you sell your soaps? I don't but ugh to one day. I find beef tallow can make a great bar,but worry an animal fat might put off potential customers.

 

[shunt2011]

The use of animal fats will only depend on your market. You could also have non animal fat soaps to reach a larger group of customers. I have found that not a lot of folks even read the labels for ingredients. I did make soap with lard, it makes an amazing soap but for some reason switched. I make a facial soap for myself with lard.

 

[MrDurden]

I make vegan-friendly products (with the exception of the honey/oats soap I use to make) for that reason of having a larger audience of customers.

I live in a part of the world where non-animal and quality ingredients is very important.

 

[sassanellat]

No input on this?

Is this not something other soap makers think about? Making a top quality product with the best ingredients possible?

LOL! I didn't reply initially because many people usually don't like what I have to say on the GMO subject (despite being an expert in an area of that field and having made non-plant GMOs) or even organic.

The vast majority of GMOs are FANTASTIC; a few are horrible. The general health nut wank is utterly misleading, and often based on things like the EU banning the import of GMOS (which was political, due to African sourcing, and contrary to their own initial scientific studies. Last year, they comissioned a new study, which also concurred that there was no problem with the food stuff GMOs in question, which they also ignored for political reasons). Now, the handful of BAD GMOs are *really* bad. These involve pesticide and herbicide resistances, and exist to increase profits at the obvious expense of human and environmental health and should be categorically stopped. Most people don't understand this and want to lump them all together with the bad ones and throw out a better faster, safer plant modification technique with the proverbial bathwater. With soap, the issue really is how much herbicide and pesticide remains in the oil. Most people avoid cottonseed oil because when the US banned the pesticide that works best on cotton, they moved production to countries where they could still use that chemical. Some avoid any GMO soy because even though many of the modificaitons have nothing to do with p/h, you cannot know if treated soy is mixed in somewhere in the process. The organic certification is the only way to avoid this. OTOH, there is olive oil, which almost never needs any help from farmers, grows on trees that are a hundred or more years old, in orchards that have never, ever seen a whisper of pesticide or chemicals, yet still aren't considered organic. So, it's complicated.

The best thing to do, IMHO, is use olive oil, never pomace grade. Skip the palm (even the certified stuff creates problems) and go with the alternatives (add salt and sodium lactate with the veg options, or use lard or tallow, which are actually green choices if you can get a good source). Skip the cottonseed oil, and investigate your sources for everything else to see if buying organic matters. Skip the fragrance oils. Go with the oxides and aquamarines, but skip any other synthetic colors. (But this is just me - I have no problem at all with people that make other choices! As I said, it's hard, and there are always tradeoffs.)

I'll note that this is hard - I regularly fail and violate these ideals, but even so, most of my products do comply. For me, the FOs are the big stumbling block. I have them around for candles, but sometimes, I just have to make my nieces some Pink Sugar soap, gumdrop sugar scrubbies for Christmas gifts, or make some Irish Tweed shaving soap for me.

 

[Meganmischke]

Megan do you sell your soaps? I don't but ugh to one day. I find beef tallow can make a great bar,but worry an animal fat might put off potential customers.

No I don't currently sell. I have people begging to buy though. I think #1 you should love your recipe if that includes tallow, awesome. You need to have a product you are passionate about. It would be impossible to make everybody happy with one recipe anyway.

 

[sassanellat]

I make vegan-friendly products (with the exception of the honey/oats soap I use to make) for that reason of having a larger audience of customers.

I live in a part of the world where non-animal and quality ingredients is very important.

Making good soap is the always the best way to larger audience. And while I have no inclination at all to ever be concerned about 'vegan-friendly' products (though I make a few; they just came out best that way in development), I'm sure that the vegans would also have big problems with the massive deforestation, orangutan habitat destruction, and the soil depleting and fair-wage issues (even for double certified) in the case of palm products. Everything seems to be a devil-if-you-do-devil-if-you-don't tradeoff these days.

 

[pamielynn]

"Best quality" meaning what, exactly? You can have organic everything and still make a sub-par soap bar.

I don't understand sourcing all (except lye and water) organic ingredients - many of which will have to be shipped to you, when you can never qualify for a fully organic bar of soap. And even if you don't pay for an Organic label, you still can't advertise as having an organic bar. Oregon Tilth, maybe; I don't know all the qualifications for that.

 

[MrDurden]

I will absolutely not consciously use GM ingredients at any point ever or support companies like Monsanto. We can skip the argument about health ramifications and just cut it down to the fact I make top quality handcrafted products. And I will use as close to natural and/or organic that I can. As I said, I want to be able to say in full confidence that I make the best possible product with the best ingredients I can.

I've never considered using FO's. I often tell my customers that "fragrance is the F-word in my vocabulary". I have a limited available scents due to the cost of EO's. I don't use colorants either. I try to keep it as simple as possible, ya know? Salt and sodium lactate? What for?

No palm, huh? It doesn't have it's place with it's own unique characteristics in soap? What issues do you mean? I read long time ago I read to use equal amounts of hard vs. liquid oils. I'm not sure what that was based on though. And I don't think I've heard that since.

Why do you bring up cottonseed oil? I think I've heard of that stuff growing in this area, not sure what the oil situation is though.

 

[LunaSkye]

I will absolutely not consciously use GM ingredients at any point ever or support companies like Monsanto. We can skip the argument about health ramifications and just cut it down to the fact I make top quality handcrafted products. And I will use as close to natural and/or organic that I can. As I said, I want to be able to say in full confidence that I make the best possible product with the best ingredients I can.

I've never considered using FO's. I often tell my customers that "fragrance is the F-word in my vocabulary". I have a limited available scents due to the cost of EO's. I don't use colorants either. I try to keep it as simple as possible, ya know? Salt and sodium lactate? What for?

No palm, huh? It doesn't have it's place with it's own unique characteristics in soap? What issues do you mean? I read long time ago I read to use equal amounts of hard vs. liquid oils. I'm not sure what that was based on though. And I don't think I've heard that since.

Why do you bring up cottonseed oil? I think I've heard of that stuff growing in this area, not sure what the oil situation is though.

1. Salt and sodium lactate both up the hardness of a soap. In addition, salt is a natural cleanser with antimicrobial properties and helps with detoxing. Keep it in mind in case you ever want to try a simple soap bar.

2. With the stigma related to palm (unethical harvesting, destruction of the orangutans' habitat, etc), many people will avoid using it in any kind of way. It is nice for making a hard soap, but some soapers would rather used other oils/fats/butters/powders to make a hard soap.

3. 50/50 hard/soft oil rule is something that I personally never heard of. It may have to do with the fact that soap harden faster with harder oils than with softer oils.

4. I'm not sure if there is also an issue with cottonseed oil, but I read on another site that it is produced in a similar manner as canola and OO pomace.

P.S.: I'm also not big on GMOs, although I do respect sassanellet's input. It's just my own preference.

 

[MrDurden]

"Best quality" meaning what, exactly? You can have organic everything and still make a sub-par soap bar.

I don't understand sourcing all (except lye and water) organic ingredients - many of which will have to be shipped to you, when you can never qualify for a fully organic bar of soap. And even if you don't pay for an Organic label, you still can't advertise as having an organic bar. Oregon Tilth, maybe; I don't know all the qualifications for that.

As I've said, I want to make the best soap I can. The soap I make now is amazing (as I'm sure we all make. It's pretty easy to do these days with the internet). Just wanting to increase the quality of the ingredients.

I can use "organic" in my ingredients. Organic coconut oil, organic hemp oil, etc. I would never want to put a USDA certified organic label on my packaging.

 

[MrDurden]

1. Salt and sodium lactate both up the hardness of a soap. In addition, salt is a natural cleanser with antimicrobial properties and helps with detoxing. Keep it in mind in case you ever want to try a simple soap bar.

2. With the stigma related to palm (unethical harvesting, destruction of the orangutans' habitat, etc), many people will avoid using it in any kind of way. It is nice for making a hard soap, but some soapers would rather used other oils/fats/butters/powders to make a hard soap.

3. 50/50 hard/soft oil rule is something that I personally never heard of. It may have to do with the fact that soap harden faster with harder oils than with softer oils.

4. I'm not sure if there is also an issue with cottonseed oil, but I read on another site that it is produced in a similar manner as canola and OO pomace.

P.S.: I'm also not big on GMOs, although I do respect sassanellet's input. It's just my own preference.

Do you know where I could look to find more info on those ingredients you suggested? I'd imagine any soap supply place has those...

And part of me likes to use palm oil so I can educate people on the topic. People just up the bandwagon and freak out over a single product because they saw some headline and ran with it not doing any further research. But it might be a good thing to remove it to avoid that all together. I had a read my ingredients once and said "do you really use beaver anus in your soap?". I was like "uhhhhhh, whaaaaat????" He read castor oil and thought Castoreum. Yikes.

https://www.drbronner.com/ingredients/fair-trade-around-the-world/palm-oil/

 

[LunaSkye]

Do you know where I could look to find more info on those ingredients you suggested? I'd imagine any soap supply place has those...

And part of me likes to use palm oil so I can educate people on the topic. People just up the bandwagon and freak out over a single product because they saw some headline and ran with it not doing any further research. But it might be a good thing to remove it to avoid that all together. I had a read my ingredients once and said "do you really use beaver anus in your soap?". I was like "uhhhhhh, whaaaaat????" He read castor oil and thought Castoreum. Yikes.

https://www.drbronner.com/ingredients/fair-trade-around-the-world/palm-oil/

Soaper's Choice is a good start for the oils and butters (their shipping beats most other places imo). WPS and Brambleberry are pretty popular with other soap ingredients as well. The abbreviations thread also has a list of suppliers' names that you can check out. Lastly, Essential Depot is a great place to get lye. Just scroll down the page until you see that name of the lye you want to use. You should see a list of lye selections that you can order upon clicking the link.

P.S.: I would suggest keeping the palm soaps on hand in case you have some die-hard fans while making a no-palm soap for people who are against the use of palm. At the end of the day, a number of reputable suppliers have the resources to look for palm oil that is sustainable. It would be bad business for them to try and get over on their customers (and shady deals tend to come out one way or another).

P.P.S.: the highlighted sentences was hilarious!

 

[MrDurden]

Soaper's Choice is a good start for the oils and butters (their shipping beats most other places imo). WPS and Brambleberry are pretty popular with other soap ingredients as well. The abbreviations thread also has a list of suppliers' names that you can check out. Lastly, Essential Depot is a great place to get lye. Just scroll down the page until you see that name of the lye you want to use. You should see a list of lye selections that you can order upon clicking the link.

P.S.: I would suggest keeping the palm soaps on hand in case you have some die-hard fans while making a no-palm soap for people who are against the use of palm. At the end of the day, a number of reputable suppliers have the resources to look for palm oil that is sustainable. It would be bad business for them to try and get over on their customers (and shady deals tend to come out one way or another).

P.P.S.: the highlighted sentences was hilarious!

I live in an area with 3 soap supply places. I don't think I could get ingredients any cheaper. I still haven't found olive oil cheaper than Costco though. Maybe when I get in a bigger quantity.

I was more curious about how much of those ingredients to use....

 

[LunaSkye]

I live in an area with 3 soap supply places. I don't think I could get ingredients any cheaper. I still haven't found olive oil cheaper than Costco though. Maybe when I get in a bigger quantity.

I was more curious about how much of those ingredients to use....

I never used sodium lactate, but I made one salt bar. I like it a lot and would make one again given the chance. A basic salt bar recipe would have you use 100% CO with up to 100% of the oil's weight in salt added at trace. Most soapers would also use a 20% SF for a salt bar. Another take on a salt bars is a salt brine soap or soleseife bar. This thread can be more helpful on how to make a soleseife bar.

As for the palm replacements, lard and tallow can be used in its place. I used lard in a few soaps and will say it may take some time to harden up (my own experience with my Chloe soap). However, the lather from my lard soap is very different from what I made with PO (nice, soft, luxurious). You could also use butters like cocoa, mango, or shea. Using 15% shea and 10% cocoa butter made for a nice soap. It is possible to go higher on the butters, but they really do affect how much lather you get. Adding castor oil or sugar can help with that.

 

[MrDurden]

I never used sodium lactate, but I made one salt bar. I like it a lot and would make one again given the chance. A basic salt bar recipe would have you use 100% CO with up to 100% of the oil's weight in salt added at trace. Most soapers would also use a 20% SF for a salt bar. Another take on a salt bars is a salt brine soap or soleseife bar. This thread can be more helpful on how to make a soleseife bar.

As for the palm replacements, lard and tallow can be used in its place. I used lard in a few soaps and will say it may take some time to harden up (my own experience with my Chloe soap). However, the lather from my lard soap is very different from what I made with PO (nice, soft, luxurious). You could also use butters like cocoa, mango, or shea. Using 15% shea and 10% cocoa butter made for a nice soap. It is possible to go higher on the butters, but they really do affect how much lather you get. Adding castor oil or sugar can help with that.

Thanks for the links.

I will continue to use only vegetable-based oils though. I use castor as well. You don't think I'd have an issue just eliminating palm and not replacing it with another oil? Maybe increase coconut a bit more compared to the other oils I increase?

I think I'll start using organic RBD coconut oil. That I can get for $105 for 5 gallons.