Batch #3 in my Soapin Adventure: MdC shave soap clone

[Johnez]

@Johnez You seem to be an intermediate level soap maker so you might want to try this recipe and method.

I have used the following recipe with great success. It makes a very rich, dense, creamy lather and is ready to go in about a week's worth of air curing / drying.

The total recipe oil weight is 500g
Stearic Acid - 60%
Shea Butter - 15%
Coconut Oil - 15%
Cocoa Butter - 5%
Castor Oil - 5%
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) - 40%
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) - 60%
Superfat - 6%

To calculate your dual-lye amounts, you can use the soap calculators here on this forum The Soap Making Friend or at Soapee (http://soapee.com/calculator) or Majestic Mountain Sage (https://bit.ly/234ixsG). Both calculate amounts for hybrid lye solutions.

Water = 2.6 x (NaOH + KOH) (28% lye solution)
I adjusted the lye solution to 25% to make it a little more easy to handle scooping into a 3" PVC Pipe mold.
I also added Sodium Lactate along with the glycerin and fragrance oil to make it easier to stir.
Glycerin - 10% of the total oil weight (50g for my 500g recipe)

I originally saw via YouTube. It's a Dual Lye Modified Cold Process soap. The results truly speak for themselves.

You can check out the video here: Making Dual Lye Shaving Soap | Modified Cold Process Method

Just watch out for the potential for a volcano... so far I have done two batches with no issues. ()

Regardless, good luck in your endeavors.

Thanks PB, I've yet to try a dual lye soap so this should be interesting when I get the chance.

 

[Johnez]

Hey gang I'm back!

I'm ready to push v1.1 to get back into the swing of things. Attached is the screen shot of my inputs, and being it's been a while so I hope this turns out well.

Anyway, as you can see I've procured the RBO (at a fantastic price too) and am getting ready to play with castor oil-w00t!

Soap recipe:

52.5g Coconut oil
63.0g Stearic Acid (50/50 SA, PA)
27.0g RBO
7.5g Castor oil
15.0g glycerin

53.19g water
35.46g 90% KOH

3g EO blend (Rosemary, Lavender, Lemon-3:2:1)

Next up deciding whether to play with butters (cocoa and Shea) or make a tallow soap. I might do each butter independently to figure out shave properties and then formulate a master recipe with the best results.

 

[Johnez]

Well dang, first impressions so far in making this soap is it is waaaaaaay slower to trace. I had such a fast trace last time I'm kind of surprised. Didn't expand instantly either. I'm not sure if it's a result of the lil dipper crock not being as hot as my larger one, the adjustment in CO and SA, the properties of castor oil and/or RBO affecting trace....or a combination of factors.

Kind of interesting. One thing is for sure, smaller batches are way harder to measure and quite a bit messier. :-/

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Small batches are messier, but large batches are messier too

(Let's stop here before it gets too philosophical)

Well, you essentially scraped off the RBO from the coconut oil. More unsaturated oil blend means slower saponification. RBO brings oleic and linoleic acid, that were essentially non-present in the original formula.
I'm curious now how the two compare in terms of application and skin feel!

 

[Johnez]

Small batches are messier, but large batches are messier too

(Let's stop here before it gets too philosophical)

Well, you essentially scraped off the RBO from the coconut oil. More unsaturated oil blend means slower saponification. RBO brings oleic and linoleic acid, that were essentially non-present in the original formula.
I'm curious now how the two compare in terms of application and skin feel!

I'll wait a week before I give a proper comparison since my initial impressions are not entirely positive. I'll say this-it is slicker than the previous soap.

I did give it a lather and it explodes just as voluminously and easily as the MdC clone. Lathering ability is about the bottom of my list on things that make a great shave soap. However, for this reason alone I'm considering doing a 1.2 version as with this much lather I am considering cutting down on coconut (which is probably causing some skin issues) and even stearic acid.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

But what to replace the saturated coconut and stearic acid with? It's the natural tendency of unsaturated FAs to make soft, slimy, ropy soap; I'm not sure if that is what you want. Giving it a week to calm down after saponification is a good first step.

 

[Johnez]

But what to replace the saturated coconut and stearic acid with? It's the natural tendency of unsaturated FAs to make soft, slimy, ropy soap; I'm not sure if that is what you want. Giving it a week to calm down after saponification is a good first step.

I was tempted to try going with Shea butter, however in the interest of addressing the main issue I'm having (lacking slickness and some irritation) I'll try isolating as few variables as I can. Lowering coconut oil from 35% to 25% and a tick up to the remaining ingredients.

Conditioning:Cleansing ratio goes to 27:17 from 22:24, a (seemingly) major improvement from 5:35 of the original MdC. Maxing out Castor oil, and maybe higher on the RBO than I should be. SA+PA still remains a respectable 53.

I'm not sure if this is a worthwhile change being coconut oil is still 25% of this recipe. I've completely warped the original with the addition of RBO and castor. I suppose in the long run the benefit will be that I can figure out how much CO is acceptable for me personally. Such a useful ingredient.

Regarding unsaturated FAs, thanks for pointing that out, I had didn't realize I had almost divided my soap along those lines. Although I hadn't planned on replacing SA with a soft oil, I'll keep my eye on that.

 

[user 49910]

@Johnez Didn't I give a link to the recipe I used to make my shave soaps? That puck I sent you was from that recipe.

Just curious is all on my part. Try the original recipe if you haven't already, I believe you will be pleased with the results. Also I have found that fiddling around with a tried and true recipe to the extreme can be detrimental at times. Do it in baby steps. Plus making very small size recipes it is difficult to achieve the results one gets with the normal sized recipe. Normally to test a recipe I will make a half-sized batch and no smaller.

This is the recipe I sent you:
**** RECIPE **** My total recipe oil weight was 500g NOTE: I made a 250 gram batch to test it at first. Used the Soapmaking Friend Calculator too.
Stearic Acid - 60%
Shea Butter - 15%
Coconut Oil - 15%
Cocoa Butter - 5%
Castor Oil - 5%
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) - 40%
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) - 60%
Superfat - 6%
Water = 2.6 x (NaOH + KOH) (28% lye solution)
**NOTE: I modified the water amount to make a 23% lye solution to make it easier to pour into my 3" x 24" PVC soap mold.
Glycerin - 10% of the total oil weight (50g for my 500g recipe)

YouTube Link: Making Dual Lye Shaving Soap | Modified Cold Process Method

 

[Johnez]

@Professor Bernardo -yes you have. I have yet to try it, but I will I promise! Summertime ain't soaping time for me unfortunately, a promotion and added workload....and a thousand other things.

As for these microbatches, they are very difficult. The problem with this hobby of mine is that it can be very productive, TOO productive even. I would gift em but they're not up to the quality I would like quite yet.

Dual lye is my next challenge. Since you're here I'm curious as to why you like dual lye. Is it necessary for the type of recipe, or is there an inherent benefit to all recipes? I personally don't mind the tack of the soft shave soaps, and notice many postings are from soapers who move from NaOH to dual lye, rarely from KOH however. I'm obviously up for new things so will give it a go out of curiosity.

 

[user 49910]

@Professor Bernardo
Dual lye is my next challenge. Since you're here I'm curious as to why you like dual lye. Is it necessary for the type of recipe, or is there an inherent benefit to all recipes? I personally don't mind the tack of the soft shave soaps, and notice many postings are from soapers who move from NaOH to dual lye, rarely from KOH however. I'm obviously up for new things so will give it a go out of curiosity.

Dual Lye helps to make a semi-soft puck of soap. It's also used in the "Cream Soap" process, of which I am experimenting with now. Since the soap is softer consistency I think it really helps with the lathering ability to be quickly reached. In addition, I am now adding a 5% of the total oils weight with Sorbitol powder to my liquid in the recipes to improve the lathering. From what I've read here on the forum, many soap makers swear by Sorbitol for it's efficiency and efficacy in the lathering process.

I have done liquid soaps too, started with those many years ago using Catherine Failor's book. I use both liquid and solid soaps for my daily hygiene showering and switch back and forth. Liquid soap makes a great lathering shampoo! I am sticking with dual-lye for the shave soaps though as it really seems to work well.

 

[Johnez]

Ooh I have scrolled through the cream soap thread here, even looked for the legendary book (same author) on the topic but it's way out of price range right now. Soooooon. The "rot" procedure is intriguing, such a funny word to describe a soaping step.

Thank you for the note explaining the reason. Makes good sense.

 

[user 49910]

Ooh I have scrolled through the cream soap thread here, even looked for the legendary book (same author) on the topic but it's way out of price range right now. Soooooon. The "rot" procedure is intriguing, such a funny word to describe a soaping step.

Thank you for the note explaining the reason. Makes good sense.

Go see my reply in the fragrance thread I started and we got a little off the beaten path so to speak. Look for "rotted"... LOL!
In that reply you will see a link to the website where I have found the process and recipe for making a whipped cream soap, I just changed a couple of things to suit my oil supply and such.

Leather Fragrance Oil - Which supplier is best?

 

[Johnez]

Well a quick update for those patient enough to follow along my meandering path:

A week of "rest" from using the latest 1.2 edition of shave soap has yielded an excellent shave. Most of the issues faced on first shave have disappeared. Slickness is there. There is no irritation. The soap has calmed somewhat and shaving was a pleasant experience. I had been slightly worried that I had an inherent process error considering literally everyone seemed to enjoy the original MdC clone but me, however it may be that my skin is sensitive to coconut in heavy amounts. Lowering the CO has helped a LOT. I did 5 passes on my chin, I've got a dang fine shave on my hands fellas.

The ultimate test for me is how I'd feel if I had purchased this soap, and well I would not be pissed off if I had paid for this lil tub of soap. It *is* my baby though so maybe I'm biased haha.

 

[Bubble Agent]

Well a quick update for those patient enough to follow along my meandering path:

A week of "rest" from using the latest 1.2 edition of shave soap has yielded an excellent shave. Most of the issues faced on first shave have disappeared. Slickness is there. There is no irritation. The soap has calmed somewhat and shaving was a pleasant experience. I had been slightly worried that I had an inherent process error considering literally everyone seemed to enjoy the original MdC clone but me, however it may be that my skin is sensitive to coconut in heavy amounts. Lowering the CO has helped a LOT. I did 5 passes on my chin, I've got a dang fine shave on my hands fellas.

The ultimate test for me is how I'd feel if I had purchased this soap, and well I would not be pissed off if I had paid for this lil tub of soap. It *is* my baby though so maybe I'm biased haha.

You are not alone in being like that! My husband can not tolerate high ammount of coconut either, and he has very sensitive skin that start to itch and get red and with sore bumps whenever there is something he reacts too, even if he moisturizes afterwards.

Even if you should be biased now, the real test is the one that you get if you still like it after time has passed adn you have used it many times. If you still like it the way it is, then it is a keeper!

True story, yesterday he actually told me in no uncertain terms that "Please, do not to fiddle with ANY more recipes, the last shaving soap you made ticked ALL the boxes!! This one is the one. OK??"

Which was so funny coming from him as he he is just a tall teddybear, and does not usually have very strong opinions when it comes stuff, easy going and goes with the flow. I always have to make sure that I don`t overtake things and I do want his opinions a lot of stuff, but he is just fine with whatever. Which can be a double edge sword, aaargh... lol.

But that was not the case now, so if he was this adamant about the soap, I know he really means it! He hasn`t been this decisive since he wanted me to be his wife almost 30 years ago, so I should take that as a compliment

Shaving soap for the gentlemen are such an interesting topic, so I find it very educational for a soapmaking woman like me, that you gents talk about things from your own perspectives! I learn a lot, so thank you!

Now I juuuuuust need to try the same recipe with a 100% KOH instead of the 70/30 koh/naOH at least once, then I am done.



Unless I am not... Shhhhhhh ...

 

[Johnez]

Even if you should be biased now, the real test is the one that you get if you still like it after time has passed adn you have used it many times. If you still like it the way it is, then it is a keeper!

Oh yes, 100% agreed. There's quite a few variables one can adjust, however if I find a recipe that wows me, I'll probably call it. Until I get the itch to try something different (tallow base, cream, exotics, etc).

And I empathize with your husband, once it's "good" I don't want it changed...ever. When I was a kid my ma made mashed potatoes the same way for years and years, when she changed it up one day both me and my bro were stunned and begged her to go back. The secret was simple-leave some chunks haha! Something so simple yet so integral we just couldn't have it another way.

The wetshavers groups and artisan offerings have grown since I've started a decade ago. Its not just soap either, but brushes, razors, and blades. Quite a rabbit hole one can fall into.

 

[Bubble Agent]

Oh yes, 100% agreed. There's quite a few variables one can adjust, however if I find a recipe that wows me, I'll probably call it. Until I get the itch to try something different (tallow base, cream, exotics, etc).

And I empathize with your husband, once it's "good" I don't want it changed...ever. When I was a kid my ma made mashed potatoes the same way for years and years, when she changed it up one day both me and my bro were stunned and begged her to go back. The secret was simple-leave some chunks haha! Something so simple yet so integral we just couldn't have it another way.

The wetshavers groups and artisan offerings have grown since I've started a decade ago. Its not just soap either, but brushes, razors, and blades. Quite a rabbit hole one can fall into.

Don`t I know it! Don`t fix it if it aint broke, right? I am the same way. If you want to test my latest recipe just PM me, I am happy to share privately. It is palm free and vegan. The one I shared in the what soapy thing-thread. ( here )

And your warning came a bit late, I have already started to drop deep into that rabbit hole research for the best shaving brush, and other things relating to shaving... You know, just in case whatever happens in the future of selling shaving soaps and targeting the gents... Oh, boiii...

 

[Johnez]

Well an update on the one that started it all, MdC shave clone of the famous songwind thread:

As is plenty visible, the lather is just phenomenal, perfect texture and goes in the face thick and pillowy. Upon the "first with the grain" pass I was pleasantly surprised at how smooth the razor glided. Slicker than I remembered. Second and third pass however were less comfortable, by the third pass I knew I wasn't going to be able to touch up the rough patches. I have to say with a 5 month cure time and perhaps my simple time away from the soap it does seem to have improved in feel. I was able to achieve a very good shave (not BBS) with little effort, definitely closer than initial testing. My face does have a sort of slightly "raw" or "exposed" feel. I hesitate in describing this because those words feel like an exaggeration, the feeling is very slight, not to the point of irritated, and not conditioned (though that's not really a goal or requirement). Most likely it's due to the very high coconut content. Although scent is not all that important here, it did fade on me quite a bit, I would say to only 30% of it's original strength. Very faint. The citric EO fade is real unfortunately.

My takeaway from this is it's been a heck of a learning experience and making this soap first was a nice primer in using stearic acid and KOH successfully. I'd wholeheartedly recommend every new soaper try this recipe, with the accompanying instructions as it's nearly fool proof, brings experience in 4 of the perennial shaving ingredients (KOH, SA, CO, glycerin), and isn't prone to surprises or random issues. The variables are few and easy to address, and the recipe sets a nice foundation for figuring out what ya want in a soap. Just perfect.

 

[Marsi]

Well an update on the one that started it all, MdC shave clone of the famous songwind thread:

As is plenty visible, the lather is just phenomenal, perfect texture and goes in the face thick and pillowy. Upon the "first with the grain" pass I was pleasantly surprised at how smooth the razor glided. Slicker than I remembered. Second and third pass however were less comfortable, by the third pass I knew I wasn't going to be able to touch up the rough patches. I have to say with a 5 month cure time and perhaps my simple time away from the soap it does seem to have improved in feel. I was able to achieve a very good shave (not BBS) with little effort, definitely closer than initial testing. My face does have a sort of slightly "raw" or "exposed" feel. I hesitate in describing this because those words feel like an exaggeration, the feeling is very slight, not to the point of irritated, and not conditioned (though that's not really a goal or requirement). Most likely it's due to the very high coconut content. Although scent is not all that important here, it did fade on me quite a bit, I would say to only 30% of it's original strength. Very faint. The citric EO fade is real unfortunately.

My takeaway from this is it's been a heck of a learning experience and making this soap first was a nice primer in using stearic acid and KOH successfully. I'd wholeheartedly recommend every new soaper try this recipe, with the accompanying instructions as it's nearly fool proof, brings experience in 4 of the perennial shaving ingredients (KOH, SA, CO, glycerin), and isn't prone to surprises or random issues. The variables are few and easy to address, and the recipe sets a nice foundation for figuring out what ya want in a soap. Just perfect.

good looking lather

citrus EO can be irritating for some people

your soap looks divine!