Avoiding Contanimation - Proper water?

[BayBoy]

From everything I've read, 25% to 30% ethanol is sufficient as a preservative.

I am making an aftershave for people that prefer lower concentrations of alcohol (normally 80+%).

My product is actually very similar to this product:
https://www.duluthtrading.com/searc...r=&p_origin=straight-razor2&processor=content

However, according to several email correspondences, and this data sheet, their product is about 50/50 witch hazel and "purified water" - and only about 5% alcohol (from the WH).

My product smells and feels very similar to theirs. But I'm amazed that they don't have issues with contamination (they've been around for 10+ years). There are no other preservatives or ingredients in their product).

That said, I noticed that they do use a product called OmniPur for the water portion of the product.

See: OmniPur® Water, DEPC Treated, Sterile, Nuclease-Free - CAS 7732-18-5 - Calbiochem
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalo...de=partialmax&lang=en&region=US&focus=product

Any idea what's going on here? Is it possible that the water acts as a preservative or simply doesn't need a preservative? Of course, what then about the water in the witch hazel. Though WH has a long shelf life on its own.

I suppose I could switch from distilled spring water to this. But at 30% alcohol, need I really worry?

 

[jcandleattic]

This is basically the same question you asked on 9/27 - did the answers you received there not satisfy the question you asked? (see: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=65122)

Again, I think if it has water in it, near it, or to be used with it, then it should be preserved.

 

[BayBoy]

Well I'm confused because I see a lot of products that list "alcohol as preservative". So if my product is 30% ethanol, I'm not sure why I'd need to add a chemical.

 

[SaltedFig]

[FONT=&quot]If you are talking pure alcohol, and its mixed just with water, sure, it won't go change or go off until you open the bottle.

But what you are doing/making isn't a pure alcohol. You're adding fats and sugars and botanicals, and so your product will deteriorate over time. The higher the alcohol content, the slower this deterioration will be, but doesn't completely stop.

In addition to this, the product you are making is a shaving product, so it is likely to be exposed to oxygen, water and bacteria during ordinary use.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

From everything I've read, 25% to 30% ethanol is sufficient as a preservative.
...
But at 30% alcohol, need I really worry?

[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I think this quote (from another forum, I hope it’s ok to post here with credits?) just about sums up what people have been trying to tell you:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From: https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/which-is-your-favorite-bay-rum-aftershave.488515/page-6

[/FONT]I challenge you, to find another alcohol based aftershave, that doesn't have at least 40% alcohol.

So if you think about your actual statement, all alcohol based aftershaves are mainly alcohol. What you need to understand about xxBrandRemovedxx and it's higher percentage, is the fact that it takes at least 60-70 percent alcohol in order to preserve a natural or essential oil.

Most alcohol based aftershaves with just 40% alcohol have other chemical or synthetic preservatives in addition to the alcohol. xxBrandRemovedxx only has alcohol to preserve it's all natural xxBrandRemovedxx. And this is the reason for it's high alcohol content and why many use it not only as an aftershave, but also a medicinal astringent.

[FONT=&quot]These may help you in your research (they are alcoholic drink related, but the concept remains the same):

"higher alcohol content ... can mean fewer preservatives."
From: https://www.choice.com.au/food-and-drink/drinks/alcohol/articles/preservatives-in-wine-and-beer

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]a higher proof contains more alcohol and this should protect it for a little longer than one with a lower proof"
From: https://www.thespruce.com/shelf-life-of-distilled-spirits-760730[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]And, if you read all of that, and you are making it just for yourself, sure. For purely personal use:
Make small batches and don't store it for a long time at room temperature, or alternatively make a batch, store most of it at about 4 degrees Celsius and decant a few days use to use at room temperature, and you should be able to avoid most of the deterioration issues.

Good luck!
[/FONT]

 

[BayBoy]

Why is it that a common liqueur at 30% alcohol that contains no preservatives but probably quite a bit of sugar doesn't turn rancid sitting on my countertop for two years?

 

[Kittish]

Why is it that a common liqueur at 30% alcohol that contains no preservatives but probably quite a bit of sugar doesn't turn rancid sitting on my countertop for two years?

Because a- the contents were subjected to considerable heat (distillation) in the manufacturing process, ensuring that it was more nearly sterile than a home manufacturer can achieve and b- you're getting lucky with avoiding contamination, sort of. You pour out of the bottle. You don't dip anything into it to access the contents. Drop anything into it, or leave it sitting open, and it'll very likely go nasty in just a couple of months.

Why are you looking at water specifically prepared for specific lab uses? This from the product you linked:

Prepared with DEPC for RNA applications. Molecular biology grade.

DNAse: None detected
RNAse: None detected
Protease: None detected
Sterility: To pass test





Intended for laboratory and manufacturing use only. Not for drug, food, or household use.

This is what's used to treat that water: DEPC. Aside from being ridiculously expensive, it kind of defeats your wanting to go 'all natural' and 'avoid preservatives'.

 

[Saranac]

Personally, I would stop trying to reverse engineer a product based solely on an MSDS and a string of emails. No company in the world is going to provide a potential competitor with enough information to recreate their products.

In my opinion, that MSDS is rather suspect. It states, "Ingredients not precisely identified are proprietary or non hazardous." Can't we say that every preservative on the market is "non hazardous"? After all, it wouldn't be on the market if it was.

A quick google search tells me they are a small family-based business. . . . Perhaps they are using a fully preserved WH and aren't aware that they need to list all of its ingredients. I don't think that is a stretch, especially when you consider that the ingredient list on the label is not compliant with INCI nomenclature.

But enough about that.

It's generally recognized that 18% alcohol is enough to preserve a water based product. Also keep in mind that most "pure" alcohols are only 95% ethanol--and they are hygroscopic; an open bottle will pick up atmospheric water, thus diluting it further.

As for an appropriate amount needed to preserve your product, only testing will tell you for sure, but I would go out on a limb and say 25-30% is more than adequate. Glycerin will also preserve water (50:50 w/w blend), as will propylene glycol (at 18% w/w) and sucrose (65% w/w). The inclusion of any of those ingredients should allow you to use less ethanol, but I don't know as I'd want sugar syrup on my face every morning. (Sources: here and here)

 

[SaltedFig]

The sugar in the liqueur will have a preservative effect.

Why is it that a common liqueur at 30% alcohol that contains no preservatives but probably quite a bit of sugar doesn't turn rancid sitting on my countertop for two years?

Saranac's second link describes preservation calculations for simple syrups, where the alcohol and sugar together are the preservative.


Just a random thought, if you are going to consider other additives as preservative, you might also look at different types of salts.

 

[Dahila]

Well I'm confused because I see a lot of products that list "alcohol as preservative". So if my product is 30% ethanol, I'm not sure why I'd need to add a chemical.

yep like Ethanol is not "chemical":headbanging:

 

[BayBoy]

I know I know. Plenty of chemicals. You know what I meant... should I add some SLS just for fun?

 

[BayBoy]

I never considered salts. Interesting.

Question: would it be constructive to sterilize my bottles before filling them, like people do when they make beer?

 

[SaltedFig]

If you are seeking ways to preserve a water-based product you are making, then it makes sense to begin with cleaned and sterilized equipment, work surfaces and containers, as you would for beer making.

Question: would it be constructive to sterilize my bottles before filling them, like people do when they make beer?

 

[dixiedragon]

Yes, you should sterilize your bottles before filling them. This is true even if you are using a "chemical" preservative.

 

[shunt2011]

I never considered salts. Interesting.

Question: would it be constructive to sterilize my bottles before filling them, like people do when they make beer?

Again, you would need professional equipment to properly sterilize your bottles. We can sanitize them but not sterilize.

Preservative is required, period when water is introduced. But then you intend to sell a product with liquor as the alcohol which in itself is illegal.

 

[BayBoy]

What preservative do you use?

 

[jcandleattic]

What preservative do you use?

I don't make an aftershave, but if I did, I would use LGP. It's what I use in my lotions, and it's a pretty universal preservative that is also versatile. It just doesn't do well in high heat situations, so if you have to heat your blend, add this preservative after the cool down phase.

Also you can research preservatives either here on the board, at http://www.lotioncrafter.com/lotioncrafter-premium-ingredients-preservatives/, or several other places.

 

[BayBoy]

wow so it works at a dilution of .1%? That would be 2 drops in a 4 oz bottle. Is that correct?

 

[SaltedFig]

Again, you would need professional equipment to properly sterilize your bottles. We can sanitize them but not sterilize.

Preservative is required, period when water is introduced. But then you intend to sell a product with liquor as the alcohol which in itself is illegal.

I do apologise.

Sanitization would be the more appropriate phrase for work surfaces in the home environment (the combinations to achieve sterilization are not friendly and there would be almost instant re-contamination anyway).

Dry heat sterilization is possible in the home (and field) environment for heat resistant tools and bottles, but a home oven is not approved for use by your FDA, so although it would work, it is not a claim that can be made and so I will also adjust future information to use the phrase sanitisation (bring down to acceptable safe levels of contamination), in place of sterilization (death to everything).

References:
1/ World Health Organisation page 3 of http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/41538/1/WHO_AIDS_2.pdf, or http://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/41538
2/ Microbe Online http://microbeonline.com/dry-heat-sterilization-principle-advantages-disadvantages/

And I'm out ... I missed the bit about it being made for sale, so I'll leave this to the professionals.