Ash or Mold, Quick Responce Apprecated.

[Shalisk]

I rarely ask for a quick responce but I was prepping to make some soap and I spotted this, on almost every type of soap i have made so far, if its mold, im not making more till i figure out why, if its ash, ill figure out how to deal with it and move on.

Attached are pictures of the culprit. Its fuzzyish to the touch, and smears a bt when poked at.

If its ash, should I put a disclaimer on soap I sell (in the future) that they may form? Or is this somthing that is avoidable?

 

[dalewaite48]

It does not look like Ash it could be mold how long has the Soap been sitting, and is it in a moist environment?

 

[Jeanea]

Is this top or side of the soap. What oils did you use. I've gotten ash on all my soaps but it doesn't look like this. What mold are you using. Maybe it's overheat. Did it zap?

 

[dalewaite48]

Ash will usually only be on the top side of the soap and be very thin not thick or spots like you're showing.

 

[Shalisk]

Top and sides, I found another topic on this with similar that said it was ash, but at the same time I am concerned, none of the soaps are over 1.5 months old, and those are mostly just CO,OO, and Palm, as well as lard in one of them. I live in Colorado so I dont concider it moist....www.google.com/url?q=http://www.soa...AQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFu9N0gHlZyediJFzALzZAeUeI6QA is the other topic so I really dont know what to think :/

 

[OliveOil2]

Soda Ash will normally be present fairly quickly, sometimes the day after making, sometimes it takes a few more days. I've never seen it show up a month later, I haven't noticed soda ash being fuzzy and like posted above it is usually thin. I have seen a few times where it was thicker, this was on soap that wasn't gelled. For the most part I see less soda ash on gelled soap. You should be able to get an answer here, sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

 

[Shalisk]

It seems MOSTLY on the top but it is also on the 'cut side' on a couple peices. I tugged at it with tweezers and it came right off, and brushed off there was no 'tug' to it like it felt like it was sitting on top, not coming from within (if that makes sense) cleans right off with a little water on a finger or paper towel... so i really dont know

 

[soapylondon]

I have had something similar on the top part of a batch of soap. It dissolves almost as you touch. Is it salty to taste? Mine was, I just brushed it off the bars and it was fine. It formed in the first 24 hours so I assumed it was related to soda ash.

 

[Shalisk]

Either im not paying attention or this formed after the first 24 hours.

I would say.... at the 2-3 week mark? give or take a couple days

 

[DeeAnna]

It's ash. Really it is. Test it like SoapyLondon suggests. Soda ash is white, slightly metallic-salty to the tongue, and is water soluble.

I agree that soda ash is USUALLY a thin layer on the top of the bar, but that is definitely not true all of the time.

A bunch of us have been testing out an unusual type of castile soap recipe. Here is a link to the full thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=411171 The bars from this recipe become covered in ash. We've learned that ash can be anywhere on the bar, it can be a frosty thin layer, it can look like dull coating of paint, it can be thick and flake off, it can be fuzzy, it can be needle-like and sparkly, etc.

The pics show two different bars -- there is ash on the cut surfaces as well as on the tops. The ash on the cut faces looks similar to yours, Shalisk. Here is another example of a soap with all-over ash that has a fuzzy needle-like texture: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=411171&postcount=427

Mold will often be various colors, especially as it develops and spreads. It shouldn't grow on lye soap unless the soap has an excess of botanical additives in and on it or if the soap has gotten some type of contaminant on it that mold thinks is yummy.

 

[Shalisk]

Translation: "Quit your panicing."?

Thank you so much for the help people I really aprecate it

How do I prevent this from forming in the future?

 

[jenneelk]

Yeah DeeAnna says it's ash.. go with that. Her word on things like this is pretty much the gospel.

 

[Seawolfe]

Can we get a cape or something for DeAnna?

 

[IrishLass]

Double ditto to all that DeeAnna said. I, too, have had some really weird ash form at times apart from the norm, but all was benign.

For future reference, in case anyone is interested in extra info on the subject, according to my Scientific Soapmaking book by Dr. Kevin Dunn, white stuff forming on the surface of one's soap is more than likely any one of these things:

-sodium carbonate
-sodium hydroxide
-soap crystals that have separated from the main body of soap
-or some other water-soluble material that gets deposited on the soap.

Dr. Dunn also lists some tests you can apply to ferret out the culprit:

1) If it's sodium hydroxide residue, it will be soluble in ethanol and much more alkaline than the soap beneath it.
2) If it's soap residue, it also will be soluble in ethanol, but will have an alkalinity similar to the soap beneath it.
3) If it's sodium carbonate residue it will be insoluble in ethanol, but soluble in water.
4) If it's insoluble in both ethanol and water, it must be some other impurity, such as silicas, clays, talcs or other additives added to the soap as colorants or modifiers.



IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

I'd completely forgotten about that info in Dunn's book, Irish Lass. Thanks for adding it to the discussion -- good stuff!

If y'all get me a cape then you gotta get Irish Lass a crown or something. She so generously shares her wealth of experience and amazing ideas. I am always very curious to see what new tidbits or insights she has to share with the group.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Glad it's been worked out - now you can get back to soaping!

Yeah DeeAnna says it's ash.. go with that. Her word on things like this is pretty much the gospel.

I always think of the scene in Armegeddon when the scientist says something and the General doubts it - the NASA chap says "This is Dr. Ronald Quincy from Research. Pretty much the smartest man on the planet. You might wanna listen to him."

I just change it to "This is DeeAnna from SMF. Pretty much the smartest soaper on the planet. You might wanna listen to her."

 

[DeeAnna]

Gent, you're a hoot. :razz:

"...How do I prevent this from forming in the future? ..."

To recap Irish Lass, she listed these things that can form "ash" of one form or another on soap:

-"...sodium carbonate
-sodium hydroxide
-soap crystals that have separated from the main body of soap
-or some other water-soluble material that gets deposited on the soap...."

Speaking more specifically about ~soda ash~, it forms when water migrating from the interior to the surface of the soap also brings residual lye (NaOH, sodium hydroxide) to the surface. Lye really doesn't like to remain as lye, so a film of excess lye on the soap surface will typically react fairly quickly with carbon dioxide (CO2) in the air to form soda ash (sodium carbonate, Na2CO3). This evaporation and reaction process happens from the time you put the batter in the mold through the initial few weeks after the bars are cut. I saw this process happening dramatically in the two batches of "super lye" soap I made (see the thread about lye-heavy castile that I referenced in my earlier post) -- there is lots of lye and lots of water in these soaps.

Soda ash is most likely to form during saponification in the mold when there is a lot of evaporation and a lot of free lye present. This is why soda ash is often found on the tops of the loaf -- the top is the only place where evaporation and lye migration can occur when the soap is in the mold. More soda ash can form during the first few weeks of cure, when evaporation from the cut bars is highest and small amounts of free lye may still be present in the soap. This is when you'll find soda ash forming on the cut surfaces and sides of the bar.

***

So, okay, Shalisk, you ask how to prevent or at least minimize it? First off, I honestly don't think you can absolutely prevent soda ash from forming. The reaction of NaOH + CO2 --> Na2CO3 is simply a fundamental aspect of the beast we're working with.

One way to minimize ash formation is to reduce evaporation during saponification. Many people lay plastic food wrap directly on the exposed surface of the molded soap. Not sure if a lid on the top of the mold will work quite as well, but it certainly can't hurt. The point here is to eliminate or reduce the amount of air (and thus the CO2) near the soap surface and also to reduce the rate of water evaporation (and thus reduce the rate of lye migration to the soap surface) during saponification. If you can do this successfully, you should be able to reduce soda ash formation.

It's possible that the CPOP method might increase the rate of soda ash formation during saponification, but it's pretty clear to me that avoiding the CPOP method does not keep ash from forming.

You could wrap the soap bars in plastic right after they are cut to prevent evaporation for a few weeks while any traces of residual lye might still remain, then unwrap to allow the soap to dry. This will slow the cure time and possibly create more problems than it solves. I haven't tried this, and I have my doubts about whether this is a good idea, but something to think about.

Dissolve the soda ash so it doesn't appear objectionable. One school of thought is to spray molded soap with high-proof alcohol a few times during saponification. Some swear by this. Others say it doesn't work reliably. Irish Lass quotes Kevin Dunn as saying soda ash is insoluble in alcohol, so my guess is an alcohol spray is not a complete solution to the problem of ash in general. Another approach is to use steam or a bath of warm water to dissolve soda ash on the bars. This is a reliable method, although time consuming and a bit messy.

Plane off the ash. Some people might think this is tantamount to shooting a mouse with an elephant gun, but it certainly works.

Accept the ash as a normal aspect of handcrafted soap.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I wonder if, as ash is insoluble in the alcohol if it is effectively reducing the CO2 contact with the soap surface, preventing ash from forming too much rather than removing existing ash?

Personally, I just accept the ash. One thing I did notice with one soap is that it was only the ungelled areas that ashed up. Not a lab-standard test, but worth keeping in mind.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=418251&postcount=13

 

[navigator9]

The alcohol spray works for me. Must be the 91% alcohol, though. I find that it's about 90% effective. I still occasionally get some ash, but not often, and not much. I used to get thick ash, and yes, it can sometimes be thick and "furry" looking. What I do now is to use a bottle that sprays a fine mist, and mist the tops as soon as I pour. I used to spray a couple of times after that, but lately, I find that the one spray seems to be enough. A fine mister prevents spots on top. When I first started this method, I thought it didn't work, but when I checked, the alcohol I was using was 70 something percent, not the 91% it should have been. It makes a difference. Once I switched, I had success. Good luck!

 

[ngian]

Another great info found here about this phenomenon. Just wondering what would be the reason that the remaining NaOH didn't react with the oils. Is it also for the recipe? Why some lye didn't pair with some fatty acids? As soda-ash also is created after we cut our bars while curing, lye had much time (>15 hours average) to pair but didn't. My guess would be that some lye may be surrounded with soap molecules and cannot reach the free oils that are on some other place.

I've also seen the soaping101's video about soda ash where it says that it is also for the density of soap molecules that helps or not the soda-ash formation. It states that if we pour our soap in the mold in light trace the density of the soap molecules is low so the water can walk through more easily to reach soap's surface than in soap that are poured while thick trace in the mold where soap's molecules density is high. The video also states that it is also for the % of humidity in the environment where the soap cures that helps or not soda-ash.

Anyways, it is something that is happening for many reasons so it is not so easy to be avoided.

My wondering is that if we see very noticeable soda-ash in our soaps, does this mean also that if we had initially used 5% lye discount, now it would be 6% or 7% ?