Are people sensitive here?

[kdaniels8811]

I think this is one of the nicer forums.

Another soap forum I frequent, you apparently are not allowed to ever ask a question that has ever in the history of the forum been asked before. You are to search the archives for any and all information you need, and then and only then, may you ask a question. If you breach this protocol, you will be the victim of a litany of snide remarks questioning your intelligence.

I know this forum, too! Yes, the Soap Making Forum has lots of nice, very helpful folks. I appreciate all of you.

 

[Robert]

Another soap forum I frequent, you apparently are not allowed to ever ask a question that has ever in the history of the forum been asked before. You are to search the archives for any and all information you need, and then and only then, may you ask a question. If you breach this protocol, you will be the victim of a litany of snide remarks questioning your intelligence.

Except for that last bit, I've been in a lot of forums on various subjects where it gets tedious after a while because you know a subject's been dredged up over & over -- but their archives have often been hard to search, and sometimes the arrangement of subjects and conduct of threads made it even harder. I've never seen it get to the point of that last sentence, though, unless my bar for what constitutes a litany of snide remarks is too high! But I might even get that way myself if the archives were easy enough to search on the subject in question, with either the tools provided by the host board or an external engine. Heck, I even get frustrated that more people don't know to use a fixed font (Courier's usually available) when they're diagramming in ASCII art!

 

[Robert]

having an optimistic attitude and a thick hide has done me well over the years...this place is tame compared to some of the rough-and-tumble forums...IMO, it's the left brain/right brain thing going on...someone might have had a bad day and gotten a little sensitive when you got all "scientific-y" on them...I believe that they might have mistaken it for a lecture, and you were being "superior." unfortunately this will happen occasionally because all we can do is read what is typed...we can't hear a person's gentle inflections or tone of voice, and we can't see their expressions...like a crooked grin or a raised eyebrow...KWIM?

Well, uh...what's wrong with being lecture-y? I guess it's a difference in attitude as to how people see writings in an online forum as directed. Sometimes in such forums that when I've quoted someone and replied, I've been bugged that the person I quoted thought I was responding to him rather than responding to the whole world for all time (until the Internet breaks) about what he wrote. I mean, it's not like we're buttonholing people in the hallway and haranguing them; it's writing which anyone can read or ignore.

Worse, when I've explained that attitude of mine -- especially that I'm not just writing for the people participating in the thread or even in the forum, but for the potential of people who might find it via Google possibly years later -- they often think I'm pretentious!

Some forums get a crowd that thinks just the opposite from me. They use a forum primarily as a way of hooking up with someone to answer a question, and then even though it might be one of general interest, they take it off into private messages as soon as they can. I think that's a waste. However, I saw that same attitude a lot when I taught undergraduate courses. Students would come to me after class with their questions -- not personal questions, but questions about the course material. Why didn't they ask in class so we could all share? I would solicit questions as enthusiastically as I could during class to no avail, saying I guaranteed that if there was something they didn't get, there would be other people who also didn't get it, probably because I didn't explain it well enough, but had no way to know I didn't explain it well enough. Many of them thought I was intimidating, or that the class itself was intimidating, that they were embarrassed. (Heck, a lot of them would even leave questions blank on tests rather than guessing an answer -- even for "choice" questions, and even though the only person seeing their answers was me! But the worst was papers they didn't put their name on.)

Compared to most people, I have a high threshold of embarrassment, so I wind up embarrassing other people because I'm not embarrassed. The classroom thing may have been just a general case of that. So that's another reason I want to find out if I'm treading into an area of sensitivity.

 

[lsg]

I think that most of us work together to make this a friendly forum that respects the views of others. RESPECT, how many remember that song? It is a good thing to remember when dealing with others. Hopefully, we can all put our differences behind us and keep working to make this one of the friendliest soap boards on the NET.

 

[new12soap]

I find this forum to be very friendly and "gentle". The biggest thing that experienced soapers take issue with, and not just on this forum but everywhere, are people with very limited knowledge and experience selling their soaps. THAT is the only thing I have ever seen anyone here be the least bit "harsh" about, please come and ask questions we are happy to help GUIDE you, but you need to do the work yourself and put in the time and experimentation to really understand what you are doing and be able to do it consistently before you even think about selling. For your own sake, for the sake of your customers, and for the sake of the reputation of handcrafted soap on the whole.

The other thing that can sometimes cause emotions to run a little high is bad information. Once in a while people come on to a forum and despite having very little practical knowledge of a subject, they are suddenly everywhere answering questions with "well I have read..." and far too often the advice is bad. I recently saw on a thread that someone advised replacing one oil with another, when the properties of those oils are totally different and produce completely dissimilar results in soap. But people don't want to be TOLD they are wrong, even when they clearly are. Hurt feelings and snarky remarks to follow...

The majority of people come to forums to learn, to share their enthusiasm for the subject, and to contribute from their experience. There are, however, a handful (anywhere and everywhere, not just here, not just in the world of soaping) of people that show up and say "give me your recipes, tell me how to do it" because they are not interested in either the science or the art, they want shortcuts. There are those that want a quick, "hey I can do that and sell them for five bucks a pop and quit my day job". And of course there are always people that want to be smarter than everyone else or better or more successful (go browse some facebook pages, wonder how many people are REALLY living those lives?), and people that just generally like drama. As others have said, this is a very "please play nice" forum, so those types don't generally stay.

 

[paillo]

What new12soap said! Word

This is an excellent thread.

 

[100%Natural]

I don't find anyone on this forum to be rude. Just the opposite. When I ask a question, I value each and every answer that is given and then do my own research to come up with the right solution. Some are just too sensitive and can't handle a difference of opinion - it's that simple.

My rule in life - If you can't handle the answer then don't ask the question!

 

[Relle]

I agree with 12newsoap and 100% natural .

 

[Stinkydancer]

I agree with 12newsoap and 100% natural .

I second this...

I can think of a really rude to newbie forum though. :silent:

 

[Hazel]

And now in another thread that seemed equally innocuous someone reacted negatively to...I can't figure out what...and an administrator is asking the original poster to reconsider her post in view of what an experienced soapmaker (like the one who reacted negatively) might think, and I'm like...huh? Do people here tend to take personally questions or statements that aren't intrinsically personal?

I agree there are always going to be some people who are sensitive and how we’re feeling can affect the way we perceive a question. I try to be nice but sometimes what I’ve written doesn’t come across as nice because of a person’s perception of intent when he or she reads it. It will be noticeable to everyone if I intend to be mean or snarky. Proof – read some of my older posts.

Since you’re posting about my comment to another member, I obviously didn’t write it well enough to make it understandable why the post’s wording needed to be re-examined. You can go back through older posts and find similar requests from new members and other members’ reactions to them. Compared to those replies, my reply was extremely nice and polite. I tried to be respectful towards the person but obviously I failed to get this across.

What appears innocuous to one person is insulting to a member who’s invested time, energy and money into developing quality soap, lotions, etc. There are members who have taken a lot of time researching and developing recipes. Some members have spent thousands of dollars on supplies in their desire to create the best products they can achieve. Forum etiquette - it’s considered extremely rude to ask to be given a recipe by many members. Ask for assistance in developing a recipe and people are willing to help. Say “gimme” and people aren’t as willing to hand over what they’ve worked so hard to achieve. I’m thrilled there are members who are willing to share information and help other members learn to develop their own recipes. IMO, this is the main point of this forum – to help people learn. It’s more educational for people to learn about ingredient properties and what each ingredient contributes to a product. It’s more educational for people to learn through experience so they know what happened and how to fix it when something goes wrong.

From what you’ve written, I’m assuming you’re an instructor somewhere. If a student came to you and said “I don’t understand this subject”, would you do the test for the person so he/she would get a passing grade?

I’m a member of quite a few forums and this one has always been the one with the most generous and supportive people. Admittedly, not always the nicest at times but I look at who posted a snippy reply and take into account the person’s overall contribution to the forum. I’m not going to slam a member if I see it’s from someone who’s earned my respect because of her willingness to share information and help people. Yep! I know this doesn’t sound fair and as an admin I should remain impartial. But I’m only human and I admit I’m more sympathetic towards members who’ve proven they’re here to contribute and grow this forum to make it the best possible. However, I will PM a member to discuss an issue when I receive a complaint or a post is reported. Also, everyone has an off day and may not be aware how something will be perceived when it is read. I know I’ve had quite a few posts which I thought sounded nice when I wrote it but people still got upset. As bodhi mentioned in her post, it’s difficult to understand intention in print because you can’t hear tone of voice or see facial expressions.

@ Crazy8 -

Thanks for the laugh. I like your sense of humor.

 

[Robert]

Forum etiquette - it’s considered extremely rude to ask to be given a recipe by many members.

You mean as in, "Anybody got a recipe for...?" Or, "May I please have your (referencing particular poster) recipe?" Or, "Could you give me [referencing a 3rd party]'s recipe?"

Ask for assistance in developing a recipe and people are willing to help. Say “gimme” and people aren’t as willing to hand over what they’ve worked so hard to achieve.

Interesting to compare that to what experienced hobbyists & pros in fireworks think. Particularly with regard to color stars, newbies often think there are secret recipes whose possession is important to success. While it's true that there are literally old family recipes in that business, and nobody's going to state their business's star formulas on the record, those with experience consider this all a bit funny because they realize there are plenty of equivalently performing formulas that are non-secret, and that the real key to success in the art is careful work and understanding of general principles.

Maybe the difference is that soaps appeal to sight, smell, and feel, so with all those sensory dimensions it's possible that there really are valuable secrets in soapmaking.

I’m thrilled there are members who are willing to share information and help other members learn to develop their own recipes. IMO, this is the main point of this forum – to help people learn. It’s more educational for people to learn about ingredient properties and what each ingredient contributes to a product. It’s more educational for people to learn through experience so they know what happened and how to fix it when something goes wrong.

From what you’ve written, I’m assuming you’re an instructor somewhere. If a student came to you and said “I don’t understand this subject”, would you do the test for the person so he/she would get a passing grade?

No, but there's no exam here, is there? But if people feel very competitive with each other, I could understand their thinking the situation to be similar.

 

[Hazel]

and that the real key to success in the art is careful work and understanding of general principles.

Yes! You got it! Thank you. You said it much better than I did in a lengthier post and I’m glad you agree with me. :grin:

Maybe the difference is that soaps appeal to sight, smell, and feel, so with all those sensory dimensions it's possible that there really are valuable secrets in soapmaking.

I wouldn’t say valuable but I consider it more of a proprietary type issue. I know there are only so many oils and so many ways you can combine them. There are other factors: fragrance oils/essential oils, additives, superfat/lye discount, etc. I’ve always been impressed and amazed by the in-depth research and the meticulous experimentation by some of the members. Admittedly, there have been several people who mentioned they did something accidentally and found it produced a great result. I’ve had this happen, too. I have a recipe I call “Oops!” which I love and I would never have thought to combine the oils at those percentages if I hadn’t made a mistake.

I got a little off track here. Anyhoo, back to the sensory experience of soap – people are so different. It’s hard to please everyone since what some people might love; other people will hate. I personally dislike the feel and lather of 100% olive soap. That’s just me. Other people love castile and consider it the best soap ever. I don’t like high percentage coconut oil without a large lye discount; there are some fragrances I can’t stand, etc and so on. Plus it’s been mentioned several times in the past there are regional differences according to fragrance and type of oil such as animal oil. What sells fantastic in one area is a dud in another part of the country. This is why market research is recommended. Environmental differences can also effect the outcome of a recipe. A soap that lasts forever in a particular region may quickly turn rancid in another part of the country. There are so many variables to take into account that it’s difficult to say that a specific recipe will be reliable all the time in every part of the country. Another variable is the soapmaker – how carefully will this person weigh out the ingredients, ensure emulsification, what colorants will be used, etc.

So another way to look at it is a recipe which is considered great by one member may be not so great for another member, kwim? Perhaps it should be viewed as people not wanting to give someone a recipe that might not be reliable. Nobody wants to give bad info and have the other member waste supplies and possibly be really upset at the other person.

No, but there's no exam here, is there? But if people feel very competitive with each other, I could understand their thinking the situation to be similar.

No, not an exam as in a typical educational format but generally members likes to see interest, enthusiasm and the willingness to learn in a new member. I know I’m making a generalization but I’ve seen it on forums and in the “real” world. People are impressed by and respect other people who show they are motivated, demonstrate they have studied the subject and are willing to put in the effort to develop skills. I wouldn’t call it competitiveness. I consider it more of the feeling of someone attempting to use or manipulate you. No one likes that feeling! I guess I’m trying to say is there are lessons all the time in every aspect of our lives. How someone reacts and presents herself/himself in a new environment (and the forum is a virtual environment) allows other people to develop an impression and then opinion of the person. It may take longer sometimes since there aren’t any visual cues to assist in helping to get to ‘know’ someone. Everything is based on written word and has already been discussed; the perception of what is meant can be affected by the reader’s personality and emotions. It can be extremely hard to communicate positive and supportive advice or concern through writing. At least, I find it hard and I know I often come across as brusque and unfriendly. I don’t mean to be but sometimes I don’t get onto the forum until late, I’m tired and I don’t choose words as carefully as I should. Also, I’ve noticed sometimes when I’ve re-read something I’ve written it does come across as rude when just read without the softening affect of tone and inflection if someone heard me say it. I’ve mentioned this before to a couple of people on the forum that I’m going to try not to write something unless I’d be willing to say it to someone’s face.

I’m getting off on another tangent…back on track. Okay, exam…lessons…I joined the forum originally to learn how to make better lotions. I had studied cosmetic ingredients in one of my classes but it wasn’t really in-depth info. It wasn’t enough for me so I read more books, researched online, stumbled across this forum during one of my searches, started at the end of the B&B forum and read forward in time. I wanted to learn as much as I could and when I didn’t find an answer; then I asked for help. People were very kind and helpful. I had been reading about cold process soapmaking for at least as long as I’d been making lotions but had been too insecure to attempt it. Because of members’ support and encouragement, I became motivated to learn cold process soapmaking. Again, went to the end of the CP forum and started reading, read books and searched online. I will never become the expert that some of the other members are in soapmaking but I am able to share some information. If I don’t have the actual experience, I may be able to pass on info or post links to other discussions or articles. This makes me feel good that I’m able to contribute and help other people. So, I’ve learned some lessons and my ‘exam’ is when I’m able to answer questions. To be fair, I have given incorrect answers. It’s fortunate that there have been experienced members who’ve kindly corrected me.

I suppose it comes down to someone’s philosophy of life. It’s just my opinion but life is all about lessons; although there are many times I’m in a bad mood, stressed and I’m not feeling very appreciative or grateful for the lessons. I used to be more conscious about situations and would think afterwards on what positive lesson I had learned. Not so much anymore. I’m more to the point of “please just let me make it through this day without punching someone in the throat”.

Anyway, this has been a fun discussion and I feel better about being able to express some opinions which I don’t think I’ve clarified in older posts.

Thanks again!