another soapbox rant

[sistrum]

It's just sad to see how hard we've worked on our products and to educate the public and to be true in our labeling to have to have the forum sponsored with these types of businesses.

Of course I know I don't need to come here but I did not know I could opt out of seeing the ads. Thank you I will do that. Out of sight out of mind works for me.

 

[Gryfonmoon]

Additionally, the majority of my ads come from places I've ordered from or sites I personally frequent. What do your ads say?

Also get AdBlock if it really bothers you.

 

[sistrum]

I wasn't talking about all your ads, I do understand about making money to support the forum which was why I was clicking on all of them because I thought that was how you got paid.
It just seemed to me like having a forum against animal abuse and then having ads from mink farms, and whale hunters on it. And it hurt my heart to think that the new managers or (what ever they are) didn't
know how the members of the forum felt about truth in labeling and the pride we take in our products or worse yet just didn't care.

 

[maiseycat]

Also get AdBlock if it really bothers you.

For the longest time, I had no idea what people were talking about when they mentioned ads, as I have been using firefox with adblock for years.

Also, I have to say, for the sites that ads do get past adblock, I have never assumed that the site chooses what ads to display, nor do I know anybody who does assume that. The Google adsense sidebars have been around long enough that in my experience, people know they are triggered by the keywords in posts as well as your own personal browsing history.

I love this forum enough that I would probably pay a supporters fee, not to get rid of the ads for myself since I never see them, but because I think the people who run it deserve our support. And if Austin or any of the mods asked me to unblock the ads because the site was struggling to stay afloat, I would do it in a heartbeat, regardless of their content.

 

[maiseycat]

I wasn't talking about all your ads, I do understand about making money to support the forum which was why I was clicking on all of them because I thought that was how you got paid.
It just seemed to me like having a forum against animal abuse and then having ads from mink farms, and whale hunters on it. And it hurt my heart to think that the new managers or (what ever they are) didn't
know how the members of the forum felt about truth in labeling and the pride we take in our products or worse yet just didn't care.

That's not how sidebar and banner ads work. The site admins do not choose them. Google does based on your web history, and the content of the site you are viewing. It breaks *my* heart to think someone thinks so poorly of a team that puts a large amount of work to keep thigs running smoothly.

 

[melstan775]

I don't think it's a laughingstock. I think it's a fun virtual place that has been informative and good to new soapers.

 

[sistrum]

I did not know you had no control over the advertising and I am truly sorry you have to have things like this on your forum. My friend puts the ads he wants on his website and gets paid by the clicks so I just thought there was a choice. (now I wonder if that's even ok to do?)
But on the other hand now I don't feel so bad about blocking them, and it also explains why you give us the option.

 

[Gryfonmoon]

Yeah, this ad thing can get confusing sometimes!

 

[VanessaP]

Yes, the AdWords chooses ads based on the key words on the page so there is no real control over what gets advertised. PPC (pay per click) are generally ads that get signed up for - you know exactly what ad is getting put up.

 

[cerelife]

So.... people like this can just be bad and no won's going to hold them accountable for it!?
I'm with Countmounty, I wish there were under cover Soap-Busters.

Sorry I phrased my response in such general terms, but happy y'all got my meaning anyway!
When I see folks selling non-CP soap, but making claims that IMHO should be reserved for CP soap alone...I have the unfortunate tendency to grill them a bit. There's nothing wrong with MP soap and it's often quite lovely, but the deception bothers me enough that I want them to know that at least THIS girl knows better.
FD, this is unfortunately true...LUSH is one of the biggest offenders and they just pay the fines and it's business as usual! Their soap is nothing but bars of detergent, yet they claim all their products are "Fresh and Handmade in small batches"...I'm kind of a hypocrite since I adore some of their face stuff enough NOT to boycott them, but I've gotten into p*ssing matches in the past with employees/managers about the soap. Don't lie to my face and tell me this is cold-processed soap when it so obviously is NOT...I'm freaking looking at your ingredient list and you don't even know enough about soapmaking to know HOW I know!?
I'm a one-woman, soap-busting b*tch on wheels...not that it actually does any good, but it does entertain the DH.

 

[melstan775]

LUSH is one of the biggest offenders and they just pay the fines and it's business as usual! Their soap is nothing but bars of detergent, yet they claim all their products are "Fresh and Handmade in small batches"

Even if their soap is chemical, how can it not be made in small batches? Actually, all of their soaps have an ingredients list, and yes some of them do have chemical additives. But Lush is big company, they made their products more stable and commercial. None the less they do look like cp soap. If you are confusing them with "all natural" ie no additives and no synthetic or refined ingredients, I don't even see where they make that claim.

 

[Gryfonmoon]

Yeah, Lush's ingredients are a disappointment to me as well, but as far as I can tell they don't make false claims about their products.

 

[RDak]

WOW!!

I just make soap for friends and family but that is ridiculous OP.

I can see why you're a bit disappointed and angry.

 

[Momonga]

This could be a bigger problem than you might think. I'm passionate about it as a consumer, even though I don't sell my own crafts (hence, I'm going on a bit of a rant myself here). I wouldn't be surprised if your impersonator came from a foreign source. There is a problem with labeling and marketing when we purchase from countries that either lack regulations or oversight of those regulations. For example, NPR recently did a story on mass producers in China marketing stuff on Etsy as "hand made", because they know those words sell, and no one is enforcing the law. They're driving down the prices so low that real artists and crafters who depend on the income are having trouble making ends meet.

This happened in the glass jewelry world. Look on eBay for glass pendants. Now you can barely recoup the cost of your materials and studio overhead because these things are being mass-produced very cheaply now and sold to US markets as "custom" or "handmade". Dichroic glass is so blingy that it's easy to make a marketable piece with no artistry or effort - just cut, fire, and glue it to a bail. Not that I don't use dichroic, and I do think it's very pretty, but it opened up the door for easy foreign mass-production.

You have every reason to rant. This is sneaky and dishonest and will put you right out of business. Your average Joe doesn't know better. Two months ago, I probably would have bought that soap. I've just started learning, and that ingredients list is still foreign to me. I might have assumed that "propyline glycol" is French for "vegetable oil", since it's French milled and all. (and yes, A&A, I'm a newbie who is still too chicken for lye processes, so I'm still proud of my little M&P concoctions... But I don't sell my stuff and would never make empty boasts - at least, not about my soap). So from a customer perspective, I share your chagrin. After getting ripped off for this cheap imitation, I might have given it as a gift to a friend as a fabulous creation from one of the "local artists" at this wonderful little town I just visited... How mortifying.

Again, you have every reason to rant! Tell that general store owner! He or she probably shares your values, and would never knowingly sell mislabeled soap. And then offer him a wholesale discount! With so many talented crafters in the neighborhood, why outsource? Isn't the "local artist" thing supposed to be part of the draw?

 

[thefarmerdaughter]

After getting ripped off for this cheap imitation, I might have given it as a gift to a friend as a fabulous creation from one of the "local artists" at this wonderful little town I just visited... How mortifying.

Again, you have every reason to rant! Tell that general store owner! He or she probably shares your values, and would never knowingly sell mislabeled soap. And then offer him a wholesale discount! With so many talented crafters in the neighborhood, why outsource? Isn't the "local artist" thing supposed to be part of the draw?


These are the exact reasons why I'm so pissed! This General Store is owned by a group (probably extended family) they use to have all handmade, locally made items. Now they are passing off manufactured items as handmade! And they don't give a crap, they just want to turn a profit. It dosent bother them that they are lying to the out-of-towners. When I go in there and hear the tourists oooh and aah over the things for sale, It Turns My Stomach! It's not the whole community, mainly this one store, but the other shop owners look the other way. the General store has a big draw, it helps bring customers in, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. Not to mention the other shop owners are probably related.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

and yes, A&A, I'm a newbie who is still too chicken for lye processes, so I'm still proud of my little M&P concoctions... But I don't sell my stuff and would never make empty boasts - at least, not about my soap

Is this directed towards me?
I don't believe I made any derogatory comments regarding MP.
My first soaps were MP, then "hand-milled" from Kirk's Castile, then finally true CP...and to be honest, I'm embarrassed at the soaps I sold as "handmade" back in the day (2000 or so). I was certainly not trying to be deceptive with that term...I honestly didn't know better (and probably shouldn't have been selling).
My comment was based on the vendor in my example claiming her soap to be "homemade" or "handmade" and "all natural", Meanwhile having no concept of the handmade soap industry or about her actual ingredients. her labeling and marketing were deceptive, whether she was aware of it or not. Her commercial detergent bars made with Michael's MP base, scent, and colors may be considered a "craft", but IN MY OPINION (and please take it as such), it doesn't qualify it as "homemade" or "all natural". I have seen some incredibly artistic MP made with quality ingredients and bases, but I still wouldn't consider it "handmade", but it would be "hand cast" or "crafted".
It's all semantics, but we can all agree how the use of these words can be, at the least confusing, and at the worst deceiving.

You should be proud of your "MP concoctions"...they are just as valid of a "craft" as CP...but if you're using a premade base with synthetic detergents, just don't label it as "homemade" or "all natural" (especially if you use lab created fragrances or colors).

Stick around here a while and your "fear" of lye will become "respect" for it's caustic property. :wink:

 

[Momonga]

I'm not sure I would ever describe my soaps as "incredibly artistic". I tell my friends they are "cast soap", Alicia Grosso's term from the "Everything" book, which I think is the most accurately descriptive name for M&P. I do really want to try the lye processes! And I just set up my new glass studio in the basement, where my 18-month old and nosy cat can never get, so I have a safe place to try it too. But I am still very amused with the "soap casting" that I can put off the expense of initial equipment outfitting for CP.

TFD, can you call the BBB to file a complaint about the company that made the soap? I don't know how effective it will be in deterring consumers from buying it, but it might get attention at the retail store level, and the soap maker will have to answer to the false advertising claims for the vegetable oil and the weight. At a minimum, it will get the message across to the manufacturer. You can also file a complaint against the store, I suppose, but I would first give the opportunity to get that crap off their shelves.

 

[new12soap]

They can market like that because no one pays attention to soap labels. It would take a lawsuit to stop it. Brazilian blowout has been misleading and lying for years and only this year a judge flat out said stop selling it in California. And that stuff is way worse then a mislabeled soap. Calling something natural when it is synthetic is a cakewalk against a product that is proven to cause cancer, smog, and a host of health problems. But that's apples to oranges. The point I was making is enforcement of labeling is not a priority for authorities. It should be though because mislabeling is a serious offense and can cause health problems too

http://personalcaretruth.com/2010/10/the-hair-smoothing-controversy/

This product the OP is ranting about is not soap, it is detergent, and therefore I believe falls under the FDA. "Handmade" and "Natural" have no legal definition, but "Soap" does, as does the wrongly indicated weight. I know French Milled has a very specific meaning, but I am not sure how or if that is defined by the FDA.

I must also say, I very much like the idea of having a conversation with the store owner about these deceptive practices and offering to wholesale to them!

 

[AngelMomma]

Yesterday afternoon............I stopped in a flea market that I haven't ever been in before. After scanning most of the booths for the 2 items I was searching for, I spotted a booth with a variety of body products. Butters, M&P, and what appears to be CP soaps. No ingredient lists on any of the soaps, most of which are nice looking but very small for the price. The labels have a name of the soap and a phone #. There were a couple of papers taped to the wall above the table that have bunch of words (I was tired!!!) Things I noticed.......a soapguild icon in the bottom of the corner of one page (obviously printed at home) and claims like"Black African Soap makes you LOOK YOUNGER".............

So I went to the Guild site and searched for this maker, couldn't find them. I wonder if you can choose to NOT be seen.
I wonder if you can somehow copy and paste their icon in some way(because surely a guild member knows proper labeling and not to make claims like a soap makes you look younger).

I spoke to the owner and she stated that some people have complained about the soapmakers claims to be all natural. I didn't have time to read through all her papers hanging on the wall......and their weren't any ingredient lists, so I don't know about that. But I did mention that there are rules about labeling and making claims like the example I gave. She said she just rents out the spaces but would be sure to mention it to the renter. She hadn't see the renter in awhile.

Seems like the people that follow the rules are few and far between.

 

[cerelife]

Even if their soap is chemical, how can it not be made in small batches? Actually, all of their soaps have an ingredients list, and yes some of them do have chemical additives. But Lush is big company, they made their products more stable and commercial. None the less they do look like cp soap. If you are confusing them with "all natural" ie no additives and no synthetic or refined ingredients, I don't even see where they make that claim.

My point was that by Lush's motto of "Fresh Handmade Cosmetics" and mention of small handmade batches, the intimation (IMHO) is that their soap is CP and that was also what I was plainly told while in the store. I never disputed that ingredient lists were available (but I've only seen them online and in the catalog, not on the physical soap)...which was why I questioned if it was CP soap after purchasing some and then looking up the ingredient list out of curiousity since it smelled divine but dried my skin out. You are absolutely correct that Lush makes zero claims to be "all natural", but that was not the source of my confusion. I'm no soap guru, but I didn't and still don't understand what these ingredients are doing in a cold processed soap. BTW, I know it's hard to tell from a typed message, but I'm truly not being a smart*ss. If I'm wrong about this then I owe an apology not only to Lush, but to everyone else as well.
Here's the ingredient list for Lush's signature soap Karma:
Water (Aqua) , Propylene Glycol , Rapeseed Oil , Coconut Oil (Brassica napus; Cocos nucifera) , Sodium Stearate , Sodium Lauryl Sulfate , Fragrance , Patchouli Oil (Pogostemon cablin) , Sweet Orange Oil (Citrus sinensis) , Lavendin Oil (Lavendula hybrida) , Pine Oil (Pinus sylvestris) , Lemongrass Oil (Cymbopogan flexuosus) , Elemi Oil (Canarium commune) , Glycerine , Sodium Chloride , EDTA , Tetrasodium Etidronate , Gardenia Extract (Gardenia jasminoides) , *Citral , *Geraniol , *Citronellol , *Limonene , *Linalool , FD&C Red No. 4
#2 ingredient - Propylene Glycol: used in antifreeze.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol
#6 ingredient - Sodium Lauryl Sulfate: used in laundry detergent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_lauryl_sulfate
Those were the main two ingredients that made me question the CP claim.