another ROE and DOS thread

[saddigilmore]

Hello Everyone,

So my canola/rapeseed experiments went as expected: orange spots in under a month, in everything over 50%. I don't have high hopes, but the verdict is still out on the sub 50%. Either way, I've also concluded that antioxidants/chelators, as many of you have already recommended, is going to be necessary to make any of these recipes last.

I'm still finding some conflicting info, and everyone seems to have a different method recipe, as with everything in this hobby , but two reputable sources seem to recommend different usages...

.05% PPO, directly into the oil, prior to storage? or .1% PPO at the time of soapmaking...
which should I be doing? What are you all doing, and why?? It seems that one method has potentially 2x the amount of ROE in the final product.


"I suggest no more than 0.5 grams ROE per 1000 grams of fat (0.05% ppo) to help preserve fats in storage or for use in soap."

would I be only adding the ROE to the oils that would be a DOS risk, namely canola? and ignoring the (solid) fats from the rest of the recipe?

or..

"Kevin Dunn recommends 1.0 g ROE for every 1000 g oils (0.1% ppo) to be added when making soap."

which is a % of the fat in the entire recipe? this is ~ 2x the amount of ROE compared to a batch, with ROE added to the oils before storage.

"Stick with the recommended dosage -- more ROE is not better! Also do not double dose -- if you add ROE to your stored fats, do not add more ROE when making soap"

so which is preferable? Adding it to the stored fats, or waiting to add during soap making?.


(from Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff)

Thank you all!

 

[ResolvableOwl]

My ROE is supercritical CO₂ extract, and specified with 7-9% carnosic acid. I have diluted it 1+7 with HO sunflower oil, and store it in a drop pipette bottle. If my math is with me, that's roughly 300 µg carnosic acid per droplet (of 29±3 mg weight).
With each drop of this diluted ROE per 10 g oils, I add about 30 ppm TOM carnosic acid into the oil blend. That's a gross dosage of 0.04 % TOM (= 0.4 g per 1000 g oils) of the out-of-the-bottle ROE concentrate (note that it is a bit higher concentrated than other ROEs out there).
I add this to all batches with significant PUFA content, with the option to ramp up to double (DeeAnna dosage) or four times (Dunn dosage) for particularly oxidation-sensitive formulations. At soapmaking time – I'm aware that earlier would be better, but I don't have soapmaking/kitchen oil inventory strictly divided, and I'm not fond of learning how ROE tastes.

I really hate to do that dilution math each time (and I'm either notorious in making stupid errors, or overzealous/perfectionist to do everything right, or both). Just counting drops is easier.

Edit: stupid dilution math error…

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Not all ROE is the same. As Swift Crafty Monkey says in the attached PDF, use ROE at the rate your supplier recommends. For example:

Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE)

INCI: Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract

Rosemary Oleoresin, also known as Rosemary Oil Extract or ROE is an oil soluble, natural extract used to ****** rancidity in natural oils. Its potent antioxidant properties are attributed in large part to carnosic acid, one of its major constituents. Rosemary Oleoresin is available with varying levels of carnosic acid. Ours is highly concentrated and standardized to 7% carnosic acid for the highest level of activity, making its use at very low percentages both effective and economical. Typically, 0.2 - 0.5 grams will be added to 1000 grams of oil.

As with any antioxidant, to be effective Rosemary Oleoresin must be added to oils when they are fresh, before oxidation has started. Additionally, it must be thoroughly dispersed in the oil. As Rosemary Oleoresin is a thick liquid, adequate dispersion can be difficult. We recommend it be predispersed in a small portion of the oil first and this added to the balance of the oil with thorough mixing.

Rosemary Oleoresin (ROE) has a mild characteristic herbaceous odor which is generally unnoticeable in final formulations when used at recommended usage levels. In addition to Carnosic Acid, Rosemary Oleoresin also contains Rosmarinic Acid, Rosmaridiphenol, Carnosol, Rosmanol, and Rosmaridiquinone.

Recommended Use Level: 0.02% - 0.05%
Appearance: Brownish-green viscous liquid
Carnosic Acid Content: 7%
Flashpoint: >212°F (100°C)

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Thanks @Zany_in_CO , that PDF is super informative! (in fact maybe even confusing/too informative for the pure ROE-in-soapmaking aspect). And it's the first source I've seen that spends a few sound words about vitamin C/ascorbic acid as a cosmetic antioxidant.

 

[earlene]

Hello Everyone,

So my canola/rapeseed experiments went as expected: orange spots in under a month, in everything over 50%. I don't have high hopes, but the verdict is still out on the sub 50%. Either way, I've also concluded that antioxidants/chelators, as many of you have already recommended, is going to be necessary to make any of these recipes last.

I'm still finding some conflicting info, and everyone seems to have a different method recipe, as with everything in this hobby , but two reputable sources seem to recommend different usages...

.05% PPO, directly into the oil, prior to storage? or .1% PPO at the time of soapmaking...
which should I be doing? What are you all doing, and why?? It seems that one method has potentially 2x the amount of ROE in the final product.


"I suggest no more than 0.5 grams ROE per 1000 grams of fat (0.05% ppo) to help preserve fats in storage or for use in soap."

would I be only adding the ROE to the oils that would be a DOS risk, namely canola? and ignoring the (solid) fats from the rest of the recipe?

or..

"Kevin Dunn recommends 1.0 g ROE for every 1000 g oils (0.1% ppo) to be added when making soap."

which is a % of the fat in the entire recipe? this is ~ 2x the amount of ROE compared to a batch, with ROE added to the oils before storage.

"Stick with the recommended dosage -- more ROE is not better! Also do not double dose -- if you add ROE to your stored fats, do not add more ROE when making soap"

so which is preferable? Adding it to the stored fats, or waiting to add during soap making?.


(from Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff)

Thank you all!

Which is preferable depends on the circumstances, in my experience. With liquid oils, I learned here that adding it when I open a bottle of oil that the whole bottle of oil is protected longer, so I add it to the bottle upon opening. I label the bottle "ROE added x/x/x" where x/x/x = the date. So I don't have to add it later when I make soap from that bottle of oil.

When using a hard oil in soap, I calculate for the oils that do not already have ROE added and add that amount to the melted oils.

So for a Castile or other liquid only soap, I don't have to add ROE when making the soap, because it's already in the bottled oils from when I opened them the first time.

But for a mixed oils soap, where hard oils are part of the mix, I do add more ROE when I melt the oils together.

The recommended amount of ROE is actually a range of 0.2 to 1.0 gram, depending on where your research leads you. The product you buy can be weaker or stronger, so that is part of the reason for the range, I suspect, as well as the intended purpose of use. Therefore what looks like a discrepancy on the surface, is more likely based on the suggested ranges, variable products AND experience of users.

See also: Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff (you may have already, but in case you didn't or for others who have not.)

 

[saddigilmore]

So for a Castile or other liquid only soap, I don't have to add ROE when making the soap, because it's already in the bottled oils from when I opened them the first time.

But for a mixed oils soap, where hard oils are part of the mix, I do add more ROE when I melt the oils together.

That makes sense, with castille soaps, to add roe prior to the oil storage... But then, that's getting half the amount of the recommended ROE that K. Dunn reommends?

Without knowing what I'm getting, no more than .5 grams was recommended @ mixing prior to storage, but 1 gram to fats was recommended during soapmaking..... which should I go with?

Therefore what looks like a discrepancy on the surface, is more likely based on the suggested ranges, variable products AND experience of users.

I understand that it's a range, but the rough recommended dose being be off by ~2x, in the same source (Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff), makes me quite uneasy

while also being warned of "pro-oxidation". I'm nervous I didn't want to half to do another entire round of testing, but I guess that's what's on the menu now!

I'm aware that earlier would be better, but I don't have soapmaking/kitchen oil inventory strictly divided, and I'm not fond of learning how ROE tastes.

so earlier is better.... and you like .4g per 1kg oil. This sounds like something I can jump on board with! thanks!

A second quesiton...

hypothetically speaking, if I knew I was doing a mixed oil soap, do you think there would be negative effects to "over dosing": with ROE to my liquid oils, at the correct proportion, to offset the amount of non-ROE-added harder oil in the recipe? Or would that cause ""pro-oxidation" in the base oils? Or is "pro-oxidation" only an issue, with the finished bars of soap?

Sorry for bouncing around with the questions. I just like knowing what I'm dealing with, and doing all the math, and research that I can, while the ingredients are in the mail truck on the way, so I'm ready to go on the day.
Once it comes, I think I'm going to do a side by side comparison of the different ROE concentrations (based on the source I used), in a 100% canola/rapseseed oil soap and see when the DOS comes around

thank you all for the replies!

 

[saddigilmore]

oops please delete

 

[ResolvableOwl]

so earlier is better....

The point of an antioxidant is to prevent oxygen attack fatty acids. These are present, in one form or another, in the oil as well as the soap. Strictly speaking, there is no point in losing time by letting oxygen attack the oils.

hypothetically speaking, if I knew I was doing a mixed oil soap, do you think there would be negative effects to "over dosing": with ROE to my liquid oils, at the correct proportion, to offset the amount of non-ROE-added harder oil in the recipe? Or would that cause ""pro-oxidation" in the base oils? Or is "pro-oxidation" only an issue, with the finished bars of soap?

I wouldn't chance it. For several reasons. First, you can gear up the dosage for vulnerable oils up to a time-proven value (no need to re-establish maximum dosage by trial and error). When diluting, say, 1:2 with hard oils, you still have a decent concentration of carnosic acid.
Second, consider to add ROE to the hard oils too. Some sources suggest that a lower dosage suffices for them. Hard oils aren't magically safe from rancidity (at least that was what one batch of shea butter gone bad taught me). Use-by dates are not (only) business-minded.
Finally, extensive ROE addition can lead to weird discolouration. I don't know how to recognise pro-oxidation, though (and honestly, I'm not overly inclined to learn it either).

 

[earlene]

That makes sense, with castille soaps, to add roe prior to the oil storage... But then, that's getting half the amount of the recommended ROE that K. Dunn reommends?

Without knowing what I'm getting, no more than .5 grams was recommended @ mixing prior to storage, but 1 gram to fats was recommended during soapmaking..... which should I go with?



I understand that it's a range, but the rough recommended dose being be off by ~2x, in the same source (Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff), makes me quite uneasy

while also being warned of "pro-oxidation". I'm nervous I didn't want to half to do another entire round of testing, but I guess that's what's on the menu now!

First, I don't recall if Dr. Dunn listed which ROE he used. Was the Carsonic Acid content 7% or 5% or 4.5% or 2% or something other than those I listed, and I don't recall if he listed the brand, where he bought it what. So without that information (which I am not going to search for right now because I am not sure that I ever noticed it when I did my own research), I can't say for sure if his recommendation took that into account, but I do know that it matters in the end product.

What makes sense and was recommended elsewhere by experienced soap makers, DeeAnna and others, who have not only the science background, but the years of soaping experience behind them boils down to this: Start at the lower end of the range or choose a 'happy medium' and try that out. IF the lower amount gives you good results, stick with it; if you still get DOS more often than not, make an adjustment to the higher end of the range. BUT, when you use a reputable soap supplier for your ROE and they put a suggested amount in their product description or on the SDS that accompanies it, follow that recommendation, as it is based on that particular product. Remember that the ROE you purchase from one manufacturer may be mixed in another oil to make if more easily dispersable; others may use another oil; and not all are created equal, as I said before. Carsonic Acid content is what matters most when determining the amount used, so pay attention to that when you choose where to purchase and for determining use in your soaps.

I know you want a clear-cut answer. But that really is as clear-cut as it gets, in my understanding.

Regarding Dr. Dunn, he is a very fun guy and if you ever have a chance to attend one of the many soapmaking conferences around the country where he often is a presenter, I encourage you to do so. I am sure you would surely enjoy hearing him in person and he is always willing to take questions at these events.