Another DOS post

[Fernando Sage]

Sorry, I know there’s a lot about it and I’ve been reading them already.

I’ve been getting DOS on some soaps very fast. Could it be because of where I store them? We have the soaps on a bakers rack, inside the house, under the AC, in an open closet (no doors). We live in Miami and the humidity is crazy sometimes, outside and inside.
Could the humidity be contributing to this?

We buy the fats in small volumes, so they are never old when we use it.
We used to super fat the soaps 5%, we reduced to 1% and the spots were there. We are about to make a fully saponified batch Hoping this ends.

Here’s the formula we use:

Olive Oil 45%
Coconut Oil 30%
Castor Oil 8%
Avocado Oil 7%
Shea Butter 5%
Mango Butter 5%


I have attached 2 pictures:

Picture 1: both soaps have been made recently, both with DOS.
Picture 2: same batch but different essential oils (only one of them has developed DOS)


We had a situation with a Lemongrass soap we made. We like to make it regular and exfoliating with poppyseeds. So we make 1 batch, we put the regular soap in the mold, we add poppyseeds to the other half and then put it in the mold. Somehow the regular one got DOS and the ones with poppyseed did not.
Does it make sense?

Any suggestions on how to stop this?

 

[AliOop]

Sorry this is happening to you! Heat and humidity can definitely contribute to DOS but aren't usually the sole cause. Are you:

~ lining the baker's racks with anything, like baking paper? If not, contact with the metal can cause DOS, especially if they are aluminum racks. Most baker's racks are aluminum.

~ using metal utensils? should be no unless they are quality stainless steel, with no cracking or peeling.

~ using distilled water? should be yes to avoid DOS from metals present in water.

~ exposing them to indirect sunlight? should be no to avoid DOS from sunlight exposure.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

I had DOS decades ago from using canola oil, but it didn’t look quite like what your pics show. Your recipe states the water to lye ratio was 1.3:1. Why so low? That water to lye ratio is lower than any I have used at 1.7:1. (I admire the thin color lines with low water ratio in your pour!) Did you melt all of your oils together, including fragrance, and mix well making sure the oils were clear (see through) without clouding? Or did you wait to add the fragrance at trace? I’m wondering if the lemongrass may have migrated out of the soap to the edges of the mold? Long shot, but worth asking.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

First off, nice soap, which makes it especially sad to see the discoloration. In addition to the advice above, and if we assume that it’s DOS and not discoloration from an EO, there are a lot of potential culprits based on what you’ve shared, especially with a recipe that is high in liquid oils. Unfortunately, both olive oil and avocado oil can be cut with cheaper oils, like soybean. Soybean oil is relatively high in PUFAs which make an oil more susceptible to oxidation. I try to stick with the virgin olive oil (not EVOO) from Costco because I had issues early on that I could trace back to olive oil from the grocery store. Avocado oil is another higher priced oil that may have purity issues (more info on that, here). Are your essential oils pure and fresh? I buy mine from an EO supplier and keep them in a refrigerator (cold and dark) for added protection. I also use an anti-oxidant and a chelator to help ward off or slow down any DOS issues. You can read about those, here and here.

If it’s EO discoloration, it may fade/go away. The soap below shows weird discoloration that was most obvious in the upper layer, but also present in the lower layer. it looks a little bit like what you have. The discoloration vanished in about a month and the soap was fine.

 

[cmzaha]

I would definitely try a chelator such as sodium gluconate, my preference, and see if it helps.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

Oh no oh no oh no!!!!! I was re-reading @DeeAnna’s Soapy Stuff page on DOS and read that waxed paper is not enough of a barrier between metal and soap because the metal molecules still travel through the paper. Well, guess what? Thinking it was enough of a barrier, I’ve had my most recent soap living on aluminum cookie sheets with parchment for the last week! I needed to be able to move the soap around when I need the kitchen table. Darn. Now I’ll pray to the soap gods that the soap will be OK.

Last week I broke down and ordered a small dehumidifier that was supposed to be ready for pickup that day. Instead I’ve been waiting a week and should be able to get it on Wednesday. I will be able to set up my drying system with the fan in my daughter’s room since she’s not here. New soaps shall stay in their molds until then.

The other info that was good to read on the Soapy Stuff DOS page was about the importance of making certain that silicone molds are scrupulously clean. Because I wanted to make sure there was no chance of silicone rash showing up with CPOP batches, I started lining the log molds and small slab mold with freezer paper. I figured the extra time was worth it compared to planing the bars and have been happy with how easily the logs come out of the molds. It’s nice to know that I’ve also been helping to avoid any DOS from developing. Sometimes I accidentally do the right thing.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Your recipe states the water to lye ratio was 1.3:1. Why so low? That water to lye ratio is lower than any I have used at 1.7:1.

Did you melt all of your oils together, including fragrance, and mix well making sure the oils were clear (see through) without clouding?

I’ve been getting DOS on some soaps very fast.

Oh my. In addition to what others advised, there are a couple of things that come to mind, based on the fact that I've never experienced DOS in my 20 years of making soap.

Olive Oil 45%
Coconut Oil 30%
Castor Oil 8%
Avocado Oil 7%
Shea Butter 5%
Mango Butter 5%

I agree with @ScentimentallyYours ...
Instead of Water to Lye Ratio 1.3:1 try Water as % of Oils 38%
NaOH needs enough water to perform as it should. If you're concerned about cure time taking longer with more water, try Lye Concentration 30%

For that formula I would heat to 120° - 135°F. until clear. To prevent graining, add the shea butter after the other FAs are melted.

You could easily use 0% SF for that batch. The olive, coconut and shea contain "unsaponifiables" that remain after saponification.

Changes I would make to increase Hardness Value and lower Cleansing Value:
Up the hardness value of 38 by lowering the % of castor oil from 8% to 5%. Add it to the shea butter.
Skip the 5% mango butter. Add it to the shea butter.
So you now have 13% shea butter.
Increase the Hardness Value and Conditioning Value, up the shea butter to 35%.

Shea Butter 35%
Olive Oil 30%
Coconut Oil 25%
Avocado Oil 5%
Castor Oil 5%

NOTE: Cleansing Value of 17 is good for my mature, dry, sensitive skin. For your humid climate, you may want to take 5% from the Shea Butter and add it to the Coconut Oil. That will also boost hardness and lather.

JMHO: High shea butter soaps are wonderful.

HTH and HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[linne1gi]

I also live in South Florida and I have learned a few things because when I first moved here, I got DOS several times. I now always use distilled water, not tap, make sure to cover any racks, even if you think they are coated, also cure away from Sunlight (of course we live in AC year round), I also use citric acid (which reacts with the lye to form sodium citrate, which is a chelator). Adding a chelator helps a lot, I also add EDTA to every soap, and since I have been doing this I have not experienced DOS.

@DeeAnna, I completely disagree with using 38% water as a percentage of oils. First that is a lot of water - way too much for cold processed soap, this was originally meant for hot processed soap. Second, it's a better idea to relate the water to the lye, since water has nothing to do with oils, and everything to do with lye. I personally use 1.6:1 water to lye ratio, but for some soaps that are higher in liquid oils, I use 1.3:1. Third, using a ratio or even a lye concentration is better because you get more consistent results. With 38% water as a percentage of oils you can get an unstable emulsion, (particularly for new soapmakers who can't spot emulsion), glycerin rivers and soap warping because of the great amount of water loss and lots of soda ash.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

@DeeAnna, I completely disagree with using 38% water as a percentage of oils.

I think you mean me, not @DeeAnna ?
Yeppers. I"m the one that recommends SoapCalc Default Setting when first trying a small 16 oz./600 gram batch. Once they experience full 6-weeks cure, they can adjust to whatever lye concentration that works best for their formula, and, I might add, where they live. Obviously, it doesn't work for you in Florida but does for me in Denver. Plus, I'm a patient soapmaker. I don't mind waiting however long it takes for soap to do its thing.

IME and JMHO, I don't disagree with your advice, as it is pretty much the SMF standard. But I feel I need to mention that I'm one of the few SMF members that have never experienced DOS or soda ash. Why that is, I haven't figured it out yet. In the past 20 years I've been a member of many forums and groups and I've never seen so much DOS and soda ash issues as what comes up on SMF.

I would love to figure out why that is. 'Tis a mystery, for sure.

 

[linne1gi]

I think you mean me, not @DeeAnna ?
Yeppers. I"m the one that recommends SoapCalc Default Setting when first trying a small 16 oz./600 gram batch. Once they experience full 6-weeks cure, they can adjust to whatever lye concentration that works best for their formula, and, I might add, where they live. Obviously, it doesn't work for you in Florida but does for me in Denver. Plus, I'm a patient soapmaker. I don't mind waiting however long it takes for soap to do its thing.

IME and JMHO, I don't disagree with your advice, as it is pretty much the SMF standard. But I feel I need to mention that I'm one of the few SMF members that have never experienced DOS or soda ash. Why that is, I haven't figured it out yet. In the past 20 years I've been a member of many forums and groups and I've never seen so much DOS and soda ash issues as what comes up on SMF.

I would love to figure out why that is. 'Tis a mystery, for sure.

Yes, apologies to @DeeAnna.
That amount of water is so much in cold processed soap - it's extreme. I don't know if you ever read Kevin Dunn's book, "Scientific Soapmaking", but he also suggests way less water, as well as relating the water to the lye. I will say that if it works for you, that's great - but, it doesn't work for very many.
I haven't had DOS for over 10 years thankfully, but I did have to change some things as mentioned. Water is a big one - lots of soapmakers use tap water, and maybe it works for some, but it depends greatly on the amount and kind of minerals in the tap water. I highly recommend distilled or reverse osmosis water for making soap. Also, of course keeping the Linoleic and Linolenic acid numbers down (using a large amount of PUFA's is definitely problematic).
Again, Sorry DeeAnna.
And thanks for writing back and setting me straight Zany.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

With 38% water as a percentage of oils you can get an unstable emulsion, (particularly for new soapmakers who can't spot emulsion), glycerin rivers and soap warping because of the great amount of water loss and lots of soda ash.

Please see the picture of the soap in this thread. It was made with full (38%) water. The thread is dated 9/21. The soap was made a year earlier in 9/20. No DOS, no glycerin rivers, no warping and no soda ash. As pretty as the day it was first made. The discussion that follows is worth a read. Still no answers, though.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/67-shea-butter-cp-ins-155.85204/
ETA: As mentioned many times before, I do not worship at the altar of Kevin Dunn. No disrespect intended toward those who do. I just don't have a head for science.

 

[linne1gi]

Please see the picture of the soap in this thread. It was made with full (38%) water. The thread is dated 9/21. The soap was made a year earlier in 9/20. No DOS, no glycerin rivers, no warping and no soda ash. As pretty as the day it was first made. The discussion that follows is worth a read. Still no answers, though.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/67-shea-butter-cp-ins-155.85204/
ETA: As mentioned many times before, I do not worship at the altar of Kevin Dunn. No disrespect intended toward those who do. I just don't have a head for science.

No offense but I see glycerin rivers as well as soda ash in that bar at least. And with that higher water amount there’s no need to CPOP, in fact it could do more harm than good, all that extra water makes the soap batter heat up quicker and stay hot longer.
Along with greatly reducing my water, I soap very cool (75-80 tops). I like to make designs, (no plain soap for me) and need to soap cool.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

No offense

None taken.

I see glycerin rivers as well as soda ash in that bar at least.

Well, you will just have to take my word for it. No glycerin rivers; no soda ash.

I soap very cool (75-80 tops).

I only soap cool when there are known heaters like milk, honey, pine tar, rosin, cinnamon/clove, etc. in the formula. Since I'm admittedly "Old School" I generally take temps before combining the warmed FAs and lye solution, especially when trying something new. That's just a good example of "Different strokes for different folks." It's all good.
We each find our own way. Eventuallly.

 

[linne1gi]

None taken.

Well, you will just have to take my word for it. No glycerin rivers; no soda ash.

I only soap cool when there are known heaters like milk, honey, pine tar, rosin, cinnamon/clove, etc. in the formula. Since I'm admittedly "Old School" I generally take temps before combining the warmed FAs and lye solution, especially when trying something new. That's just a good example of "Different strokes for different folks." It's all good.
We each find our own way. Eventuallly.

Of course. We can disagree on this and agree on everything else. No harm no foul. I wish you only good things.

 

[Fernando Sage]

Sorry this is happening to you! Heat and humidity can definitely contribute to DOS but aren't usually the sole cause. Are you:

Thank you! It’s painful to watch it happening and not being to do anything once it begins.

~ lining the baker's racks with anything, like baking paper? If not, contact with the metal can cause DOS, especially if they are aluminum racks. Most baker's racks are aluminum.

I wasn’t and for some reason I always thought that this could be the issue. As soon as I read your post and ran To do it And I’ll never let the soaps touch the aluminum again. Thank you

~ using metal utensils? should be no unless they are quality stainless steel, with no cracking or peeling.

no, only metal is the racks

~ using distilled water? should be yes to avoid DOS from metals present in water.

not every time but will start using always

~ exposing them to indirect sunlight? should be no to avoid DOS from sunlight exposure.

I keep them in a close and it doesn’t het any sunlight when they are at home, but we take some to the Farmers Markets and there they are supper exposed to the Miami scorching sun

Thank you so much for your feedback, I’ll line up the racks and use only distilled water from now on! Hope that resolves the issue.

 

[Fernando Sage]

I had DOS decades ago from using canola oil, but it didn’t look quite like what your pics show. Your recipe states the water to lye ratio was 1.3:1. Why so low? That water to lye ratio is lower than any I have used at 1.7:1. (I admire the thin color lines with low water ratio in your pour!)

The only reason why we use such low water to lye ratio is because we got that from a soap maker we admire a lot. We love her soaps and we know that ratio works well for her. With time we learned to make some designs even with so little water but we have been thinking about switching back to then way we used to do it Before.

Did you melt all of your oils together, including fragrance, and mix well making sure the oils were clear (see through) without clouding? Or did you wait to add the fragrance at trace? I’m wondering if the lemongrass may have migrated out of the soap to the edges of the mold? Long shot, but worth asking.

We only use essential oils and we mix it in at trace.

 

[Fernando Sage]

First off, nice soap, which makes it especially sad to see the discoloration.

Aww thank you - that picture doesnt show much but we really like how marbled they look.

In addition to the advice above, and if we assume that it’s DOS and not discoloration from an EO, there are a lot of potential culprits based on what you’ve shared, especially with a recipe that is high in liquid oils. Unfortunately, both olive oil and avocado oil can be cut with cheaper oils, like soybean. Soybean oil is relatively high in PUFAs which make an oil more susceptible to oxidation. I try to stick with the virgin olive oil (not EVOO) from Costco because I had issues early on that I could trace back to olive oil from the grocery store. Avocado oil is another higher priced oil that may have purity issues (more info on that, here).

Oh wow!! I never thought of that. I’m sure I never buy anything that says blend. I usually buy my oils with from Soapers Choise or Brambleberry (both here from the US). So I trust the oils are in fact what they say they are and I believe they are not old oils because they sell a lot to soap makers.

Are your essential oils pure and fresh? I buy mine from an EO supplier and keep them in a refrigerator (cold and dark) for added protection. I also use an anti-oxidant and a chelator to help ward off or slow down any DOS issues. You can read about those, here and here.

So the essential oils I admit we need to manage better. We buy from different sources almost every time. We have had problem with some suppliers and we don’t buy from those anymore. Some we buy from Amazon for small batches with brands that have good reviews. But mostly we hope that the EO are good quality.

If it’s EO discoloration, it may fade/go away. The soap below shows weird discoloration that was most obvious in the upper layer, but also present in the lower layer. it looks a little bit like what you have. The discoloration vanished in about a month and the soap was fine.

View attachment 73760

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. We are relatively new at this and we learn a lot here in this forum.

 

[Fernando Sage]

I would definitely try a chelator such as sodium gluconate, my preference, and see if it helps.

Hi cmzaha, thank you for the suggestion. I had to google it because I disn’t know what it was. To be honest I’ll have to read more about it,
We try to keep our soaps as natural as possible using simple ingredients that people recognize what they are (except for the lye). So depending on what sodium gluconate is, how it’s produced, it might be something we can consider. Thank you

 

[Fernando Sage]

Oh no oh no oh no!!!!! I was re-reading @DeeAnna’s Soapy Stuff page on DOS and read that waxed paper is not enough of a barrier between metal and soap because the metal molecules still travel through the paper.

Just read the whole post on Rancidity. Thank you so much for sharing. There’s a lot I can start doing to avoid this.

Well, guess what? Thinking it was enough of a barrier, I’ve had my most recent soap living on aluminum cookie sheets with parchment for the last week! I needed to be able to move the soap around when I need the kitchen table. Darn. Now I’ll pray to the soap gods that the soap will be OK.
View attachment 73777
Last week I broke down and ordered a small dehumidifier that was supposed to be ready for pickup that day. Instead I’ve been waiting a week and should be able to get it on Wednesday. I will be able to set up my drying system with the fan in my daughter’s room since she’s not here. New soaps shall stay in their molds until then.

About to buy a dehumidifier too because we live in Miami and the humidity here is no joke.

The other info that was good to read on the Soapy Stuff DOS page was about the importance of making certain that silicone molds are scrupulously clean. Because I wanted to make sure there was no chance of silicone rash showing up with CPOP batches, I started lining the log molds and small slab mold with freezer paper. I figured the extra time was worth it compared to planing the bars and have been happy with how easily the logs come out of the molds. It’s nice to know that I’ve also been helping to avoid any DOS from developing. Sometimes I accidentally do the right thing.

Thank you for helping us out sharing your experience.

 

[Fernando Sage]

Oh my. In addition to what others advised, there are a couple of things that come to mind, based on the fact that I've never experienced DOS in my 20 years of making soap.

What a dream to live without DOS! Lol

I agree with @ScentimentallyYours ...
Instead of Water to Lye Ratio 1.3:1 try Water as % of Oils 38%
NaOH needs enough water to perform as it should. If you're concerned about cure time taking longer with more water, try Lye Concentration 30%

We started making the soap with 38% and switched to 1.3:1 simply because we learned that from someone else and it worked for her. To us, we noticed that helped reducing the ash that we were getting some times. But I will change to a ratio with more water next time.

For that formula I would heat to 120° - 135°F. until clear. To prevent graining, add the shea butter after the other FAs are melted.

You could easily use 0% SF for that batch. The olive, coconut and shea contain "unsaponifiables" that remain after saponification.

WOW thank you! We were already planning to use 0% SF but with what you said we feel much more confident about it.

Changes I would make to increase Hardness Value and lower Cleansing Value:
Up the hardness value of 38 by lowering the % of castor oil from 8% to 5%. Add it to the shea butter.
Skip the 5% mango butter. Add it to the shea butter.
So you now have 13% shea butter.
Increase the Hardness Value and Conditioning Value, up the shea butter to 35%.

Shea Butter 35%
Olive Oil 30%
Coconut Oil 25%
Avocado Oil 5%
Castor Oil 5%

NOTE: Cleansing Value of 17 is good for my mature, dry, sensitive skin. For your humid climate, you may want to take 5% from the Shea Butter and add it to the Coconut Oil. That will also boost hardness and lather.

Full disclosure: the only reason we use Mango butter is because we are in Miami and we say the our recipe is Miami inspired: coconut, avocado, mango are part of our life. Lol
But we have absolutely no problem in removing it If that will improve the recipe.
Thank you so much!

View attachment 73809

JMHO: High shea butter soaps are wonderful.

HTH and HAPPY SOAPING!

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!