An odd happening

[Traumabrew]

I made a batch of liquid soap paste tonight. I decided to use hemp oil for this batch (I made a mistake an ordered unrefined hemp oil which gives a green hue to soap and wanted to use it up and thought the green hue would add color instead of adding a dye). So my batch was 24 oz Coconut oil, 12 oz Castor, 12 oz Hemp oil and 3 oz Jojoba. Used 9.75 oz KOH and 1.1 oz NaOH (90% KOH, 10% NaOH) with 33 oz water to start. I do not use the alcohol method nor do I use glycerin in the recipe.

I melted the oils in my crock pot and added the KOH/NaOH mixture in, stirred with spatula briefly then hit it with the SB. Got a good trace in about 6 minutes. Left it to cook for 20 minutes and when I checked it had accelerated into almost soap on a stick. I broke the glob up and let it cook. Every 20-30 minutes I would check. It became translucent but never left the chunky, hard rock like consistency. I cooked it for about 4 hours with no real change in consistency, so I boiled up 2 oz water and put an ounce of it into the water and it did dissolve and was relatively clear.

I am perplexed why I went into this hard rocky stage (not really taffy) and stayed there. Could it be the NaOH?

I am going to dilute it in the AM and see how it comes out.

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[BattleGnome]

I'm still learning liquid soap but it sounds like you cooked too much water out of the paste. No actual issues, you just have the opportunity to save on your electric/gas bill a bit by not needing to add lots of heat.

 

[Susie]

BattleGnome is correct. You cooked too much water out of your soap paste. I no longer cook any liquid soaps. Or stick blend to paste. Just get it to true emulsion and walk away for a little bit. Normally it will get itself to paste and gel itself. So then I can dilute. Give it a try. Truly it works. Here's a great recipe in post #8:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

 

[DeeAnna]

Commercial soap makers both new and old use the names "neat" soap and "middle" soap to describe the two general consistencies that gelled soap can have. They're both gels, but neat soap has a taffy consistency -- thick, sticky, but stirrable with difficulty -- and middle soap is very firm and too thick to stir. The difference is the water content. Either add water or subtract water to solve the problem. (Yes, you can get out of the middle soap stage by removing water if you want!)

I agree with the others that you probably started the recipe in a good place for water content, but cooked enough water out of the soap paste to get it to that middle-soap stage. Since you're wanting to dilute the soap and adding water is faster than cooking water out of the soap, the best answer is to add water. And cook less or don't cook at all for your next batch.

 

[Traumabrew]

When the soap went into this hard stuff, it was only a matter of 30-60 minutes. I have read that LS requires 3-4 hours cook time.

Also, I thought all LS required cooking.

 

[Traumabrew]

Here is my clarity test and what I got in the pot

 

[penelopejane]

When the soap went into this hard stuff, it was only a matter of 30-60 minutes. I have read that LS requires 3-4 hours cook time.

Also, I thought all LS required cooking.

Did you look at the link Susie posted above?
We have some very experienced liquid soap makers on this forum and Susie and Irish Lass have generously written out their exact, foolproof method for making LS.

 

[DeeAnna]

When the soap went into this hard stuff, it was only a matter of 30-60 minutes.

And at that point, saponification was basically done. You could have stopped cooking at that point or even earlier. By saying "only ... 30-60 minutes", I get the impression you think that is a short time, but a fair bit of evaporation can happen in 30-60 minutes depending on your method. It's hard to say more without me standing next to you and watching how you made the batch.

I have read that LS requires 3-4 hours cook time. Also, I thought all LS required cooking.

No, this isn't true, even though I know many people believe otherwise. This is no more correct than the idea that "all NaOH soap requires cooking" or "all hot process NaOH soap requires 3-4 hours of cooking."

If we can use a cold process for NaOH soap, we can do it for KOH soap. Here's a good thread to learn more: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=653194 especially Post 8. Also see: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=653457

 

[IrishLass]

When the soap went into this hard stuff, it was only a matter of 30-60 minutes. I have read that LS requires 3-4 hours cook time.

Also, I thought all LS required cooking.

As Susie and DeeAnna and Penelopejane said- cooking is truly not necessary. I never cook mine and it comes out great.

The older LS books (and folks quoting the older LS books in online blogs that don't know any other way) will instruct to cook the batter to the paste stage, but the chemical reaction of saponification will happen whether one cooks their batter or not.

Just make sure to stir /mix the LS batter to a stable emulsion, then once the batter has reached that point, cover it and walk away. No heat needed.

You don't even need heat as you are stirring it to emulsion. The only time I use heat is to melt my oils/fats before adding the lye solution.

You also don't need heat to dilute the paste- just time.



IrishLass

 

[Susie]

I am impatient, I heat to dilute. But I have dumped cold water in there and walked away for a couple of days due to an emergency in the family. It diluted just fine without my help.

 

[DeeAnna]

It is true that liquid soap is less forgiving about too much fat in proportion to the KOH, so KOH purity and superfat setting are important. Bar (NaOH) soap is more tolerant of variations in the superfat and alkali purity.

And if you want a transparent liquid soap, you'll want to choose some fats over others. That isn't a concern with bar soap, although the right blend of fats is still important to make a mild, long lasting, hard bar.

Other than that, LS is pretty easy to make by a variety of methods even though there are skeptics who insist otherwise. But there's no One True Way of making liquid soap any more than there is only one way to make bar soap.

 

[Susie]

It is true that liquid soap is less forgiving about too much fat in proportion to the KOH, so KOH purity and superfat setting are important. Bar (NaOH) soap is more tolerant of variations in the superfat and alkali purity.

And if you want a transparent liquid soap, you'll want to choose some fats over others. That isn't a concern with bar soap, although the right blend of fats is still important to make a mild, long lasting, hard bar.

Other than that, LS is pretty easy to make by a variety of methods even though there are skeptics who insist otherwise. But there's no One True Way of making liquid soap any more than there is only one way to make bar soap.

^^^^^THIS!!!

We can provide recipes, methods, and advice. We can help you avoid ideas that we have found to fail. But if you find a new recipe, idea, or method that works for you, then go for it! Please share, so we can all go try it, also. But your tried-and-true recipes and methods are as valid as ours. Not, mind you, your not tried recipes or methods, but what actually works for you. I am always up for new ideas!

 

[Traumabrew]

Update:

I used SummerBeeMeadow.com soap calculator to formulate my recipe. So I used the dilution recommended which was 182 ounces of water. Got the water to boiling and added it to my 2 gal glass jar along with the soap paste. After many hours, it has dissolved but it is really watery. I used the recommended 1.92 ounces of Borax powder to neutralize the soap and added my FO and Optiphen Plus preservative. Still is quite watery.

Any suggestions I can do to thicken it up?

I know, it looks like a jar of pickle juice lol

Thanks

 

[Susie]

There are ingredients you can use to thicken it. However, the better idea is for you to stop using SBM and use Soapee.com. It eliminates the possibility of you thinking you have to use borax. There is no need to use borax unless your recipe is lye heavy. Was your recipe lye heavy?

 

[Traumabrew]

I guess the materials I have been reading are a bit outdated. The gist of what I was reading was that liquid soap is made lye heavy to ensure no free fatty acids, there by creating clear liquid soap.

I used the SBM calculator since I wanted to use a dual lye (embarrassed I did not know about soapee.com) which instructed me to add the Borax to the diluted soap. In regards to superfatting liquid soap, I read only sulfonated castor oil can be used in liquid soap post cook/saponification.

 

[IrishLass]

Oh my- yes- a lot of outdated material! Absolutely no need to start out lye heavy or use borax, and you can use other oils post saponification besides sulfonated castor as long as you also add some PS80 along with it to help solubize the oil.

Don't feel embarrassed about not using Soapee. I confess that I've yet to use Soapee myself. lol I cut my LS teeth on Summerbee's calculator and I still use it to calculate my superfat, lye and initial water for making the paste, but I totally go my own route when it comes to dilution.


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

Susie has explained many times that it's important to sneak up on the final dilution, and she's right.

It's easy for me to get impatient, toss the whole amount of water into the paste, and hope for the best. I usually regret it. Every batch is going to be slightly different, so one batch might need 182 oz of dilution water. Another might need only 150. And yet another might need 200.

It is far easier to add dilution water slowly than to fix a too-watery batch. If you are using a recipe new to you, add about 1/2 the water the recipe recommends. If you don't have any estimate of how much water may be needed, a good starting point is 1 part water to 2 parts paste. (So 50 g water to 100 g paste) If much too thick, then add half that amount of water again. (Half of 50 is 25 grams water) Check. And so on. As you get close to the desired thickness, you may end up adding a teaspoon of water at a time -- a little water goes a long ways when nearing the end of dilution.

Once you get some history with a recipe, then you can use more water to start the dilution, but I still think it's best to never add the total amount in one go. Too many times the soap has told me what worked last time is not going to work this time.

Fixes for too watery soap:

Accept it as-is, use it up, and dilute the next batch more cautiously.

Use a separate thickener such as HPMC, HEC, xanthan gum, etc. SMF member Faith (Alaiyna B bath and body, http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/) has a good blog that covers how to use these thickeners. Soap that is lower in oleic acid is difficult to thicken just by dilution, so a thickener is helpful.

Try adding table salt. I strongly recommend experimenting on a sample first. Too little and too much salt will thin the soap -- more is not going to be better. A low-oleic soap will not respond well to salt. Also salt works best on a soap that is near its optimum dilution -- it may not thicken a soap that is too dilute.

Some people use borax to thicken. I don't have any suggestions about how to do it. Be aware that borax can "break" the soap into fatty acids because it also lowers the pH of the soap, so use carefully. Experiment on a sample first.

Evaporate the water by heating the soap gently.

 

[Susie]

Or, you can heat up your liquid soap and cook out the excess, IF there is excess. Don't assume that there is, try a small amount. If you get a skin on top, there is no excess water. Liquid soap, by its very nature, is thinner than commercially produced synthetic detergent "liquid soap". It is the nature of the beast, I'm afraid.

More importantly, though, please read lots and lots of this forum. There is no more need to slave over a recipe of liquid soap than there is of bar soap. It is your option, of course, but not necessary. IrishLass' recipe is my go-to hand soap recipe. I use it exclusively. I also make liquid soap paste for other purposes, but that is what is by my sinks for hand washing.