Always excess oil no matter what i do

[zeth4500]

hi so ive for about half a year been making liquid soap on/off, and theres ALWAYS excess oil in it.
currently i have made one batch with 100g sunflower oil and 35 grammes of potassium hydroxide flakes (90%)
which, is more than twice whats normally used
my procedure is basically, pour oil into tall stainless steel pot
measure out potassium hydroxide
add hot water to dissolve it (about 100mL or more)
add it to the oil, turn on the heatsetting to 1
stickblend it for a while and leave it on stove overnight adding in a bit more water.
its usually clear when i check up on it in the morning but when it cools down, after adding in some water it turns turbid, or adding a small amount of it to excess cold water
it doesnt even smell like base. ive used various soap making calculators. are they all just completely wrong and you have to add a gigantic excess of the base?? probably 10th time im trying this now and ive used a lot of the KOH that i bought expensively. i tried sodium hydroxide too but same problem

 

[DeeAnna]

"... are they all just completely wrong and you have to add a gigantic excess of the base??..."

No, they are not wrong. It's something you're doing; it's not the fault of the calculator.

You say the soap is clear when it is warm but cloudy when it's at room temperature. What temperature is "room temperature" where you live?

Is the soap just cloudy or does it also separate into two layers over time? A photo would be helpful to give more detail.

Are you repeatedly using the same type of sunflower oil?

Is the sunflower oil a high oleic type or a conventional (high linoleic) type?

If you have used fats other than the sunflower oil, please explain.

Are you using distilled or demineralized water for making the paste and for dilution? If not, what type of water are you using?

 

[AliOop]

measure out potassium hydroxide
add hot water to dissolve it (about 100mL or more)

Hopefully you are adding the KOH to the water, and not the reverse?

 

[DeeAnna]

Also, do not use hot water to dissolve alkali like KOH and NaOH. Room temperature or cool water for safety. Both of these alkali chemicals dissolve easily without the use of heat.

If you must use hot water to dissolve your alkali, you don't have KOH, potassium hydroxide aka caustic potash. You might be instead have K2CO3, potassium carbonate aka potash.

 

[zeth4500]

Also, do not use hot water to dissolve alkali like KOH and NaOH. Room temperature or cool water for safety. Both of these alkali chemicals dissolve easily without the use of heat.

If you must use hot water to dissolve your alkali, you don't have KOH, potassium hydroxide aka caustic potash. You might be instead have K2CO3, potassium carbonate aka potash.

i didnt titrate it but its flakes and the bottle looks legit, it also smells strongly alkali which K2CO3 wouldnt- ive dealt with chemistry for an amount of years. but there is a chance i was given KOH flakes that simply turned into carbonate from poor storage but i really doubt it
i use hot water because it dissolves it in merely seconds and if it starts to boil excessively you just add in a bit of extra water - no sweat

"... are they all just completely wrong and you have to add a gigantic excess of the base??..."

No, they are not wrong. It's something you're doing; it's not the fault of the calculator.

You say the soap is clear when it is warm but cloudy when it's at room temperature. What temperature is "room temperature" where you live?

Is the soap just cloudy or does it also separate into two layers over time? A photo would be helpful to give more detail.

Are you repeatedly using the same type of sunflower oil?

Is the sunflower oil a high oleic type or a conventional (high linoleic) type?

If you have used fats other than the sunflower oil, please explain.

Are you using distilled or demineralized water for making the paste and for dilution? If not, what type of water are you using?

room temperature, well kitchen where i do it is about 10*C these days

i use same type of sunflower oil, its cooking grade so, probably high linoleic

i have tried it seperating into 2 layers, a white foamy layer ontop i usually get, but still if i remove the top layer and the clearish solution, washing hands with it will make them feel not really greasy, but like theres a bit of oil on your hands afterwards, which storebought soap doesnt- and in the sink you can see also theres some oil as the water cant stick to the sink properly

i have tried coconut oil as well and also had this issue

as for the water i use, just tap water- the amount of CO2 dissolved in it shouldnt be anywhere nearly enough to quench the KOH into K2CO3 and ruin the process that way

when i test the solution i take a small water bottle with cold tap water, add in a tiny bit of soap liquid (the sunflower soap diluted with some water is like a gel at room temperature) and shake it then let it stand- and first now at like 35 grammes per 100g sunflower oil im getting something that doesnt leave that weird feeling on hands afterwards
excess base should leave hands exceptionally clean- and i didnt let this soap stand around for much so it just doesnt make sense to me

Hopefully you are adding the KOH to the water, and not the reverse?

no i just add hot tap water in, its a big pot about 40cm tall and i only make small batches currently, but yes with larger batches you wanna guesstimate it so youre sure it wont cause the water to boil and send off fumes of caustic - with small batch even if it does start to boil you just add in a bit of cold water and it calms down and leaves you with a clear solution in mere seconds

 

[AliOop]

as for the water i use, just tap water- the amount of CO2 dissolved in it shouldnt be anywhere nearly enough to quench the KOH into K2CO3 and ruin the process that way

Tap water often has impurities, especially metals, that will cause some of the exact problems you are having. Distilled or deionized water is strongly recommended.

no i just add hot tap water in, its a big pot about 40cm tall and i only make small batches currently, but yes with larger batches you wanna guesstimate it so youre sure it wont cause the water to boil and send off fumes of caustic - with small batch even if it does start to boil you just add in a bit of cold water and it calms down and leaves you with a clear solution in mere seconds

The problem isn’t the fumes. The problem with putting water on top of lye is that you can cause an explosion or eruption that can spray caustic lye water everywhere. This is a major safety issue, which is exacerbated by using hot water instead of room temp water.

It sounds like you have been lucky so far, but please don’t assume your luck will continue. Please follow the standard safety recommendations, and slowly pour the KOH flakes into room temperature water. They dissolve quickly with a minimum of stirring.

 

[DeeAnna]

10 degrees C is 50 degrees F. That's chilly. This is likely one of the reasons why your soap is cloudy at room temperature. The solubility of soap is dependent on temperature. The cooler the temp, the more likely you'll see some precipitation, and thus cloudiness.

Your use of tap water is another reason for cloudy soap. If you want clear soap, you must use distilled or demineralized water. The use of distilled/demineralized water is basic protocol for liquid soap making.

Another issue is that nearly all commercial "soap" isn't actually soap. Commercial cleansers are usually synthetic detergent blends. If you have very hard water (high mineral content), the liquid soap you're making will react with those minerals to form insoluble soap scum. Soap scum can feel greasy or sticky on the skin. Synthetic detergent cleansers do not react with dissolved minerals, so they do not form soap scum in hard water.

 

[zeth4500]

Tap water often has impurities, especially metals, that will cause some of the exact problems you are having. Distilled or deionized water is strongly recommended.


The problem isn’t the fumes. The problem with putting water on top of lye is that you can cause an explosion or eruption that can spray caustic lye water everywhere. This is a major safety issue, which is exacerbated by using hot water instead of room temp water.

It sounds like you have been lucky so far, but please don’t assume your luck will continue. Please follow the standard safety recommendations, and slowly pour the KOH flakes into room temperature water. They dissolve quickly with a minimum of stirring.

yes i understand in large quantities it can turn water into steam rapidly, ive handled concentrated sulfuric acid many times (about 15 years of chemistry) which is 10fold more exothermic when you dump it into water so i know the drill - but yes doing it fast is not recommended with such a dangerous chemical to people who arent used to handling dangerous chemicals, it can turn you blind with one oops

but yes, i understand now the tap water might contain calcium which would form.. calcium soap, which would be insoluble
however- i still dont understand where all the excess base goes

so, i guess what im dealing with is a spiritual issue since it really doesnt make sense in any way, looking around online i dont see it being possible to over-saponify it but only damage it with drying it and heating too much

 

[AliOop]

yes i understand in large quantities it can turn water into steam rapidly, ive handled concentrated sulfuric acid many times (about 15 years of chemistry) which is 10fold more exothermic when you dump it into water so i know the drill - but yes doing it fast is not recommended with such a dangerous chemical to people who arent used to handling dangerous chemicals, it can turn you blind with one oops

Given your years of working in chemistry, I'm not sure why you would recommend or use a process (adding water to lye, instead of the reverse) that is contraindicated by all manufacturers and all safety assessors. Perhaps you have created your own safety work-around, but the vast majority of folks on this forum aren't soaping in a lab, don't have lab experience, and should not be misled into believing that it is ok to do what you are doing. It is not safe, and it is irresponsible to present it as safe.

but yes, i understand now the tap water might contain calcium which would form.. calcium soap, which would be insoluble
however- i still dont understand where all the excess base goes

With your 15 years experience in chemistry, surely you are aware that there is more than calcium in tap water, and how these ingredients can cause cloudiness, separation, lack of lather, etc. It's a chemistry issue, not a spiritual one.