Advice Appreciated

[Cassie]

Hi all,

I have been making cp soap for a few years now but I was wanting to tweak my recipes. I currently use soapcalc.net but is there a better way to figure out possible soap qualities? I have read on some threads that soapcalc.net is not the most accurate in terms of hardness when olive oil is involved?

I currently use the following two recipes and plan to test out a third:
For all recipes:
Lye concentration 35%
superfat 5%

1.Avocado oil - 5%
Canola oil - 15%
Castor oil - 5%
Coconut oil - 30%
Grapeseed oil - 5%
Mango seed butter - 10%
Olive oil - 30%
I liked the hardness of this bar but the mango butter and avocado oil were too expensive to keep buying

2. Sweet Almond oil - 5%
Canola oil - 15%
Castor oil - 5%
Coconut oil - 30%
Grapeseed oil - 10%
Olive oil - 20%
Shea butter 15%
This recipe is more affordable to me, even the shea butter comes out to the same price as the grapeseed oil and slightly less than the olive oil per ounce. However, this bar has been coming out softer and I don't like that.

3. This recipe I haven't made yet but will be testing
Sweet Almond oil - 10%
Castor oil - 10%
Coconut oil - 27%
Grapeseed oil - 10%
Olive oil - 28%
Shea butter - 15%
I wanted to decrease the coconut oil a tad just to have a slightly less cleansing bar. I am also using sweet almond oil because I have a big jug of it so I plan to use it until I run out but I'm ambivalent about ordering more in the future. I took the canola out because it seemed like it would make the bar softer.

I am struggling to get a hard bar without having a lot of coconut oil or shea butter and using only plant based oils/butters without palm. The only ingredients I would like to keep using are the coconut oil, grapeseed, and olive oils because I can get them locally for a good price. Otherwise I would really appreciate any suggestions on other oils/butters that work well in a vegan/palm free bar or if my percentages in my current recipes could be tweaked.

 

[Ford]

Hi, rice bran oil, sunflower(ho) oil, are some you might look into. I like both, but rice bran is not very common.
In my neck of the woods.

 

[lsg]

Canola and Grapeseed oil are both prone to rancidity. I would replace them both with rice bran or maybe high oleic sunflower oils.

 

[AliOop]

Soy wax and cocoa butter would both increase hardness while keeping it vegan. You can also increase the shea significantly; it has an FA profile very similar to palm.

My favorite calculator is SoapmakingFriend.com. It offers a lot more options than soapcalc. There is a small yearly fee if you want to save more than just a few recipes.

 

[TheGecko]

Hi all,

I have been making cp soap for a few years now but I was wanting to tweak my recipes. I currently use soapcalc.net but is there a better way to figure out possible soap qualities? I have read on some threads that soapcalc.net is not the most accurate in terms of hardness when olive oil is involved?

I currently use the following two recipes and plan to test out a third:
For all recipes:
Lye concentration 35%
superfat 5%

1. I liked the hardness of this bar but the mango butter and avocado oil were too expensive to keep buying

2. This recipe is more affordable to me, even the shea butter comes out to the same price as the grapeseed oil and slightly less than the olive oil per ounce. However, this bar has been coming out softer and I don't like that.

3. I wanted to decrease the coconut oil a tad just to have a slightly less cleansing bar. I am also using sweet almond oil because I have a big jug of it so I plan to use it until I run out but I'm ambivalent about ordering more in the future. I took the canola out because it seemed like it would make the bar softer.

I am struggling to get a hard bar without having a lot of coconut oil or shea butter and using only plant based oils/butters without palm. The only ingredients I would like to keep using are the coconut oil, grapeseed, and olive oils because I can get them locally for a good price. Otherwise I would really appreciate any suggestions on other oils/butters that work well in a vegan/palm free bar or if my percentages in my current recipes could be tweaked.

I've been using SoapCalc and haven't had any difficulties with it and I've compared with with other soap calculators. My only recommendation is to find one that you like using and stay with it.

With regards to soap calculators and 'soap qualities', they are pretty much all the same. I think you need to spend some time understanding what are meant by those 'qualities' and how the fatty acids of the oils/butters contribute to them. At the same time you have to understand that you are making soap...the purpose of soap is to clean...that's it. It is naturally 'cleansing' so trying to make a more cleansing bar of soap is only going to strip away more natural oils. Squeaky clean is great for dishes and pots and pan, but not for skin (or hair). Another part is 'condition'...again, the purpose of soap is to get you clean, to carry away dirt and excess oils; it is not meant to 'moisturize' your skin, especially since it's not on it for more than a few minutes before it gets rinsed off. So the quality is, IMHO, about making a soap that allows your skin to retain more of it own natural oils. "Hardness" can be looked at in two different way...the physical hardness of the bar and how long it lasts. You can make a 'harder' bar in a couple of different ways...adding sodium will make for a harder bar, using 'hard' oils and butters will also work. And one way to make a bar longer lasting is making sure that it is properly cured. But even if you do the best that you can, it comes down to the consumer. Even the hardest bar of soap cannot defeat water.

As to your recipes:

1) I don't worry too about the cost of my ingredients. I could easily make a less expensive bar of soap if I didn't use Cocoa and Shea Butter and it would still be a good quality soap, but I like my Butters and I haven't had any problems getting folks to pay for soap that have those butters in them. On the other hand, I'm not going to waste Bakuchi Oil $4.00/oz) or Capuacu Butter ($2.70/oz) in soap...that is a total waste of money on a wash on/rinse off product. And since you start buying in bulk, you'll be able to save money. Also, if you develop other products that use common ingredients, you'll save even more.

2) The recipe is 55% Soft Oils and thus may need to cure longer. Make a small batch and test at 8, 12, and 16 weeks.

3) I would go with half as much Castor Oil. The stuff is great, but too much can leave the bar feeling sticky. Have you consider Cocoa or Kokum Butter? I use Cocoa and Shea at 10% each in my Regular Soap. One thing you need to know about Shea is that it is that it doesn't fully saponify and the max I have used it at so far is 12% in my Goat Milk Soap. I don't use Cocoa Butter in it, but I do use Palm Oil...something I know that you don't want to use.

Something I want to say before I have to go to work...if you are making soap for yourself, knock yourself out on anything you want to use. If you are wanting to make a business and support yourself and your family out of making soap, you want to be careful about niche markets because...well...they are as the name implies...small and segmented. Now I'm not trying to talk you out of anything...I fully support any business owner being allowed to have personal convictions. If you are vegan and are selling to other vegans...great. If you aren't vegan and are simply using it as a marketing tool, you might as well grab all the buzz words and add that your soap is also sugar free, caffeine free, low carb and glutton free. By the same token, if you have a personal objection to using Palm Oil...great. If are simply trying to not 'offend'...you need to understand that the majority of commercial soaps are made with Palm Oil or Palm Kernel Oil and I don't see folks picketing grocery store about. I had someone at a craft fair mention my use of Palm Oil...like I was out there cutting down the trees and killing orangutans myself. Puh...leeze. I mentioned that I only using Palm Oil that is certified RSPO to show that Palm Oil can be produced responsibly and sustainably. NOT supporting that effect and simply shutting down Palm Oil production would lead to another product being misused. There is a balance to nature...it's what people discovered when they tried to kill off all the wolves.

 

[KiwiMoose]

^Yep. Soy wax and /or cocoa butter.

Try using Golden Wax 415 - it's the best for soap. And pretty cheap too! I use it at 20% and also use Shea butter at 10%. Try cutting your CO back to 20%.

 

[dmcgee5034]

Hi @Cassie -
I eliminated Canola Oil once I finished the big jug I purchased. One less item to have on hand and worry about, plus the rancidity worry. I also stopped using Avocado oil in my soap, again just one less item to worry about.
I love 15% Sweet Almond Oil, 10% Mango Butter, and 5% castor - for me, adding these to my recipe is worth it.

 

[Zing]

Aloha! Years ago I replaced olive oil and grapeseed oil with rice bran oil and have never looked back! I'd keep castor oil at 5% -- higher quantities can make for a soggier bar. Good luck on your quest!

 

[Cassie]

Thank you for the replies on suggestions for alternate oils/butters. I was wondering if anyone had experience using kokum butter in soap? If so, do you have any recommended suppliers? I have read that it's slightly harder than shea and less greasy. I try to use oils/butters I can use in both soap and body butters so I may also look into adding soy wax, cocoa butter, kokum butter, or repurchasing mango butter. I would really appreciate any recommended reputable suppliers.

As far as why no palm, it seems like a controversial topic that people are either absolutely against or for, so long as it's sustainably sourced and I would just like to avoid any controversy so I don't use it. Plus it's not an ingredient I would use in anything except making soaps and it's not locally available to me so it doesn't seem worth shipping in. I don't judge others who use it, I just decided not to for myself.

As for animal based oils like tallow and lard, that just isn't something available locally and I personally prefer plant-based products. We have a total of one cattle farm remaining on Oahu and they do not make/sell tallow. As far as I have seen even grocery stores here don't sell lard. Again, I don't judge others for using it, just not for me.

I currently make soap for just myself and friends/family but I would like to have a small business one day. I don't ever plan for it to be my full time and would like to continue it as a hobby/potential small side business.

I live in Hawaii and shipping anything out here is so expensive so I am selective about how many ingredients I ship in plus I'm trying to reduce my individual carbon footprint. I buy my co, oo, grapeseed, and canola from Costco because it get's shipped in through them regardless of if I purchase or not and the prices are the cheapest I could find anywhere factoring in shipping. I currently ship in shea butter, castor, sweet almond, micas, and fragrances but I haven't nailed down a supplier for the oils/butter.

I have bought shea and mango butter through Plant Guru on Etsy because they don't charge for shipping but I'm not sure if I trust the business fully because of the lack of information about their products sourcing, no dates/lot numbers on shipments. So far, the quality of the butters seems good but I think at this point I would rather pay more to buy from a trusted ethical company that provides more transparency. If anyone has any go to suppliers for butters I would appreciate any recommendations!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I currently use soapcalc.net but is there a better way to figure out possible soap qualities? I have read on some threads that soapcalc.net is not the most accurate in terms of hardness when olive oil is involved?

All calculators list the Hardness Value as 17 and INS Value as 105, so it isn't just SoapCalc. Most experienced soapmakers know that, in spite of those values, 100% Olive Oil, when properly cured, can make a "rock hard" bar depending on how it's formulated. So keep that in mind.

You can judge this for yourself by making a small batch of Zany's No Slime Castile. Instead of 100% Pure Olive Oil (NOT Extra Virgin), I use 85% Olive (or Almond Oil), with 10% Coconut and 5% Castor. I start using it at the 2 week mark, although, The longer the cure, the better the soap! Here's a video to see how quickly it hardens and is ready to cut.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

3. This recipe I haven't made yet but will be testing
Sweet Almond oil - 10%
Castor oil - 10%
Coconut oil - 27%
Grapeseed oil - 10%
Olive oil - 28%
Shea butter - 15%
I wanted to decrease the coconut oil a tad just to have a slightly less cleansing bar. I am also using sweet almond oil because I have a big jug of it so I plan to use it until I run out but I'm ambivalent about ordering more in the future. I took the canola out because it seemed like it would make the bar softer.

I am struggling to get a hard bar without having a lot of coconut oil or shea butter and using only plant based oils/butters without palm. The only ingredients I would like to keep using are the coconut oil, grapeseed, and olive oils because I can get them locally for a good price. Otherwise I would really appreciate any suggestions on other oils/butters that work well in a vegan/palm free bar or if my percentages in my current recipes could be tweaked.

Sweet Almond oil - 10%
Castor oil - 10%
Coconut oil - 27%
Grapeseed oil - 10%
Olive oil - 28%
Shea butter - 15%

Eliminate Almond and Grapeseed and up the Olive Oil or use 50/50 Almond/Olive. Since Olive is readily available and is one of the 3 legs of the Basic Trinity of Oils don't bother to substitute with another oil unless you need to. For now, almond oil is the best sub for olive oil at 50/50 until you use it up.
As has been suggested, lower the Castor to 5%. That's sufficient to increase lather and conditioning.
Lower Coconut to 20-25% (Hardness and Lather) and up the Shea Butter (hardness & conditioning.) Shea Butter is a good sub for palm (or lard) in any recipe you want to try.

Play around with SoapCalc. INS 160 is a so-called "perfect" bar. INS 145 is more conditioning but requires a longer cure.

HTH

 

[dibbles]

Is macadamia nut oil affordable for you? I’ve used it in soap, and it was very nice. I haven used kukui nut oil or butter myself, but have heard good things. It might be more available and affordable for you than it is for me, especially if you can buy it locally.

 

[Annabella]

I've been using SoapCalc and haven't had any difficulties with it and I've compared with with other soap calculators. My only recommendation is to find one that you like using and stay with it.

With regards to soap calculators and 'soap qualities', they are pretty much all the same. I think you need to spend some time understanding what are meant by those 'qualities' and how the fatty acids of the oils/butters contribute to them. At the same time you have to understand that you are making soap...the purpose of soap is to clean...that's it. It is naturally 'cleansing' so trying to make a more cleansing bar of soap is only going to strip away more natural oils. Squeaky clean is great for dishes and pots and pan, but not for skin (or hair). Another part is 'condition'...again, the purpose of soap is to get you clean, to carry away dirt and excess oils; it is not meant to 'moisturize' your skin, especially since it's not on it for more than a few minutes before it gets rinsed off. So the quality is, IMHO, about making a soap that allows your skin to retain more of it own natural oils. "Hardness" can be looked at in two different way...the physical hardness of the bar and how long it lasts. You can make a 'harder' bar in a couple of different ways...adding sodium will make for a harder bar, using 'hard' oils and butters will also work. And one way to make a bar longer lasting is making sure that it is properly cured. But even if you do the best that you can, it comes down to the consumer. Even the hardest bar of soap cannot defeat water.

As to your recipes:

1) I don't worry too about the cost of my ingredients. I could easily make a less expensive bar of soap if I didn't use Cocoa and Shea Butter and it would still be a good quality soap, but I like my Butters and I haven't had any problems getting folks to pay for soap that have those butters in them. On the other hand, I'm not going to waste Bakuchi Oil $4.00/oz) or Capuacu Butter ($2.70/oz) in soap...that is a total waste of money on a wash on/rinse off product. And since you start buying in bulk, you'll be able to save money. Also, if you develop other products that use common ingredients, you'll save even more.

2) The recipe is 55% Soft Oils and thus may need to cure longer. Make a small batch and test at 8, 12, and 16 weeks.

3) I would go with half as much Castor Oil. The stuff is great, but too much can leave the bar feeling sticky. Have you consider Cocoa or Kokum Butter? I use Cocoa and Shea at 10% each in my Regular Soap. One thing you need to know about Shea is that it is that it doesn't fully saponify and the max I have used it at so far is 12% in my Goat Milk Soap. I don't use Cocoa Butter in it, but I do use Palm Oil...something I know that you don't want to use.

Something I want to say before I have to go to work...if you are making soap for yourself, knock yourself out on anything you want to use. If you are wanting to make a business and support yourself and your family out of making soap, you want to be careful about niche markets because...well...they are as the name implies...small and segmented. Now I'm not trying to talk you out of anything...I fully support any business owner being allowed to have personal convictions. If you are vegan and are selling to other vegans...great. If you aren't vegan and are simply using it as a marketing tool, you might as well grab all the buzz words and add that your soap is also sugar free, caffeine free, low carb and glutton free. By the same token, if you have a personal objection to using Palm Oil...great. If are simply trying to not 'offend'...you need to understand that the majority of commercial soaps are made with Palm Oil or Palm Kernel Oil and I don't see folks picketing grocery store about. I had someone at a craft fair mention my use of Palm Oil...like I was out there cutting down the trees and killing orangutans myself. Puh...leeze. I mentioned that I only using Palm Oil that is certified RSPO to show that Palm Oil can be produced responsibly and sustainably. NOT supporting that effect and simply shutting down Palm Oil production would lead to another product being misused. There is a balance to nature...it's what people discovered when they tried to kill off all the wolves.

Best advice I have heard in a long time in regards to ingredients to run a small business. Some ingredients can be very costly. The longevity of a bar of soap I have found is the amount of time I have let it cure. You can't beat a hairy man to go through a bar of soap in a week though !!

 

[Zing]

Ooh, ooh, yes on the kukui nut oil! What a wondrous oil! When we visited Hawai'i a coupla years ago (heaven on earth), my wife got so sunburned and kukui nut oil saved her. I brought back bottles of it and love it in soap and lotion bars.

Once I got a chunk of kokum butter and loved it. Because of the expense, I saved it for leave-on products, i.e., lotion bars. I also love mango but save it for lotion bars. I know palm oil is controversial but it's in my base soap recipe. I don't do animal fat, no reason, just never have. I have no judgment on other soapers' recipes.

I have a good good bud on the Big Island so hear ya on the cost of shipping. I get most of my products from BrambleBerry. From the grocery store, I buy coconut oil and avocado oil, sweet almond oil, jojoba oil, and sunflower oil which I use in soap and lotion bars.

 

[Cassie]

Sweet Almond oil - 10%
Castor oil - 10%
Coconut oil - 27%
Grapeseed oil - 10%
Olive oil - 28%
Shea butter - 15%

Eliminate Almond and Grapeseed and up the Olive Oil or use 50/50 Almond/Olive. Since Olive is readily available and is one of the 3 legs of the Basic Trinity of Oils don't bother to substitute with another oil unless you need to. For now, almond oil is the best sub for olive oil at 50/50 until you use it up.
As has been suggested, lower the Castor to 5%. That's sufficient to increase lather and conditioning.
Lower Coconut to 20-25% (Hardness and Lather) and up the Shea Butter (hardness & conditioning.) Shea Butter is a good sub for palm (or lard) in any recipe you want to try.

Play around with SoapCalc. INS 160 is a so-called "perfect" bar. INS 145 is more conditioning but requires a longer cure.

HTH

I've made 100% olive oil soaps in the past. It wasn't my favorite but one of my friends really liked it. Though for soap embeds I do a 70% oo and 30% co for simplicity. I actually made 2 batches of the 3rd recipe I listed on Tuesday but added a very small amount of honey and they're pretty hard now. Once they've cured I will have to test them out to see if how it actually performs and if I even notice a difference from my other 2 recipes. In the future I don't think I will repurchase the almond just because it's not available to me locally and it's pretty pricey to ship in. I really like grapeseed and it's available to me through Costco but I'll try a few recipes without them since it seems to be a consensus to leave it out. I have over 20 recipes I have tinkered with over the years and saved on my computer and the highest INS value I have gotten is 142! I'm curious but have you made a palm free plant based soap with an INS of 160? I wonder if I would really be able to tell the difference. The only bar soap I have used is the ones I make myself and previously I used shower gel so maybe I'll have to purchase someone else's soap to really feel the difference.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Cassie]

Is macadamia nut oil affordable for you? I’ve used it in soap, and it was very nice. I haven used kukui nut oil or butter myself, but have heard good things. It might be more available and affordable for you than it is for me, especially if you can buy it locally.

I wish! If there is a local wholesaler here, I haven't found them and the small amounts they sell at the store are expensive! A 4oz bottle of kukui nut oil at the store is $16 and it's usually not pure kukui. I don't think I've ever actually seen macadamia nut oil sold in stores here even at our local restaurant store Chef Zone. My regular job is at a hospital and kukui nut oil is actually given out as a prescription for very dry skin because, undiluted, it works wonders and it's also so expensive! The cheapest I have ever seen it was $1/oz but that product was not from here it was from Indonesia. I have recently thought about trying to make my own kukui oil by gathering the nuts that fall on the ground at public parks here because at least I could afford it

 

[Cassie]

Ooh, ooh, yes on the kukui nut oil! What a wondrous oil! When we visited Hawai'i a coupla years ago (heaven on earth), my wife got so sunburned and kukui nut oil saved her. I brought back bottles of it and love it in soap and lotion bars.

Once I got a chunk of kokum butter and loved it. Because of the expense, I saved it for leave-on products, i.e., lotion bars. I also love mango but save it for lotion bars. I know palm oil is controversial but it's in my base soap recipe. I don't do animal fat, no reason, just never have. I have no judgment on other soapers' recipes.

I have a good good bud on the Big Island so hear ya on the cost of shipping. I get most of my products from BrambleBerry. From the grocery store, I buy coconut oil and avocado oil, sweet almond oil, jojoba oil, and sunflower oil which I use in soap and lotion bars.

Kukui nut oil is so great for restoring dry damaged skin! Unfortunately it costs an arm and a leg down here just like everywhere else There are large soap makers down here that use kukui nut oil (North Shore Soap Factory) so there must be a wholesaler with reasonable prices but I just haven't been able to find them myself. I'm considering gathering the fallen kukui nuts I see in public and trying to even make my own oil at this point

 

[dmcgee5034]

There are large soap makers down here that use kukui nut oil (North Shore Soap Factory) so there must be a wholesaler with reasonable prices but I just haven't been able to find them myself.

Or they use a very small amount, and still get the benefit of label appeal...

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'm curious but have you made a palm free plant based soap with an INS of 160?

Yes. The first one I thought of is one of my favorites. Not quite 160 though:
67% Shea Butter Soap - INS 155

 

[AliOop]

@Cassie is there a reason you care about the INS value of your soap? Many lovely soaps have “bad” INS values, which is why many modern soapmakers don’t even bother with it.

The recipe’s fatty acid profile is far more informative when it comes to developing recipes that meet specific objectives, such as being gentle, being long-lasting, or the like. I’d encourage you to focus on that instead of the INS value.