Adding extra oils to cp soap

[sassanellat]

Had a read through the ones on here but it seems to be more about adding things at trace, even with HP, which is different from adding things after the cook in HP. After the cook, there is no lye left, just finished salts of fatty acids. So what is added at that point is then unable to react with lye, surely?

There are some videos out there (ones associated with Essential Depot) where the lady there does HP all the time, adding glycerine, EOs or FOs, specialty oils, etc. after the lye reaction is complete. Theoretically, they should survive perfectly. But there is the heat to consider, because everything is added hot and heated well to allow everything to combine. I haven't tried HP yet, but doing exactly what you mentioned is at the top of my list to try. I'd love to be able to make a small batch soap with superfatted borage oil for psoriasis.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

This has been simply wonderful! A great thread indeed. Thank you to all.

 

[LBussy]

What Carebear may have been thinking about is the fact that ionic compounds are rather promiscuous. In the case of soap, the cations on the soap molecules are quite happy to drift around.

For example, one can partially make a sodium (Na) soap from a pure potassium (K) soap simply by adding table salt (sodium chloride, another ionic compound) to the potassium soap. The Na ions will bump the K ions off some of the fatty acids and the result is a mixed cation soap.

So trying to digest that - the "promiscuous cation dance" to which you refer is the potential of a cation to swap with another cation (either free or currently bonded to a fatty acid). In other words if we have Sodium Cocoate and Potassium Stearate that we worked very hard to keep separate, we will likely end up with at least some Potassium Cocoate and Sodium Stearate.

Before that you (paraphrased greatly) said the chance to turn back into "fat" is statistically improbable, so adding for example shea butter after the lye is completely reacted with the stearic acid is unlikely to result in saponified shea and unreacted stearic acid.

If I am correct in interpreting this so far:

• "Special" superfats added at trace are unlikely to persist as "special" superfats, unless they have some property that makes them a less likely target for saponification.
• Superfat added after a complete reaction (HP or CP rebatch) is likely to retain the character of the superfat.
• A mixed cation salt will likely perform the "promiscuous cation dance"
• Free cations will also result in some swapping of metals in the soap (soap scum)

It's been a long difficult day and I'm pretty tired, so I hope this makes a bit of sense.

You should try reading it before coffee!

Well if my bullets captured what you said then it made sense. If not then .. well, I'll make some coffee and try again.

Oh wait, there was also some mention of cake. Yes cake. Love cake!

 

[LBussy]

I'd love to be able to make a small batch soap with superfatted borage oil for psoriasis.

The small HP batch is exactly how I did my shaving soap formulation testing. I did 100g batches in small plastic screw-top disposable food containers and "simmered" those in a pan of water as a pseudo bain marie.

I did not get the "boil" that I get in a crock pot, nor any evaporation, but as a means to explore the recipe's characteristics compared across several samples it was very effective in terms of time and resources.

I just looked up Borage Oil. Doesn't look like something I'd put in a shaving soap:

Bleeding disorders: There is some concern that borage seed oil might prolong bleeding time and increase the risk of bruising and bleeding. If you have a bleeding disorder, use borage with caution.

Ref: http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...eingredientid=596&activeingredientname=borage

The rest of the descriptions make it sound quite nice though. Looks like the active ingredient may be gamma-linolenic acid which would probably be why adding it in a manner where it will not react is desirable? Also seems evening primrose is high in this acid.

Good read on it here:

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/gammalinolenic-acid

 

[DeeAnna]

...if we have Sodium Cocoate and Potassium Stearate that we worked very hard to keep separate, we will likely end up with at least some Potassium Cocoate and Sodium Stearate.

Yep -- spot on. This would be especially true when the soap is diluted in water, but it is likely to happen even in a solid bar soap to some degree.

...so adding for example shea butter after the lye is completely reacted with the stearic acid is unlikely to result in saponified shea and unreacted stearic acid.

Again, yes, that is what I suspect is correct.

"Special" superfats added at trace are unlikely to persist as "special" superfats, unless they have some property that makes them a less likely target for saponification.

Yes. Kevin Dunn did a few experiments that support this hypothesis that adding fat at trace does not "protect" that fat from being saponified. In his experiments, the unsaponified fat remaining in the soap was a blend of ALL fats added to the soap pot, whether they were added at the beginning or at trace.

What he found in some of his experiments is that saturated fatty acids (lauric, myristic) were a little more likely to be saponified than the unsaturated fatty acids (oleic, linoleic). In another experiment, the ricinoleic acid in castor oil was more likely to be saponified than the saturated fats in palm. I want to stress that he only did a few experiments on carefully selected combinations of fats, so use his results as a rough guide, not gospel truth.

Superfat added after a complete reaction (HP or CP rebatch) is likely to retain the character of the superfat.
A mixed cation salt will likely perform the "promiscuous cation dance"
Free cations will also result in some swapping of metals in the soap (soap scum)

Yes to all three in regards to soap.

 

[LBussy]

Excellent! The day is now free to discuss soap labels!

 

[sassanellat]

The small HP batch is exactly how I did my shaving soap formulation testing. I did 100g batches in small plastic screw-top disposable food containers and "simmered" those in a pan of water as a pseudo bain marie. {...}

I did not get the "boil" that I get in a crock pot, nor any evaporation, but as a means to explore the recipe's characteristics compared across several samples it was very effective in terms of time and resources.

I just looked up Borage Oil. Doesn't look like something I'd put in a shaving soap: {...}
The rest of the descriptions make it sound quite nice though. Looks like the active ingredient may be gamma-linolenic acid which would probably be why adding it in a manner where it will not react is desirable? Also seems evening primrose is high in this acid.

The plastic contains are quite clever, Lee. Boiling won't complete the reaction as fast, but it still gets you there, no fuss, no muss.

I'm also not sure I'd go with borage oil for shaving if the anticoagulant factor is significant due to the possibility of nicking the skin (though the GLA is slick and seals the skin, in general, which would be nice for shaving soap). It does seem to work quite well for eczema and psoriasis (unlike nearly all the rest of the homespun claims) in actual scientific testing, and it's used in many commercial products for the same reason (and the GLA, which tends to help seal the skin, thus helping eliminate the immune reactions that undelie both conditions). And yes, evening primrose oil is also nearly as high in GLA, though I'm told from people that use those commercial products that EPO works better for eczema, and BO works best for psoriasis in lotions and salves. The citations are on swiftmonkey's site if you are interested.

 

[Susie]

There are some videos out there (ones associated with Essential Depot) where the lady there does HP all the time, adding glycerine, EOs or FOs, specialty oils, etc. after the lye reaction is complete. Theoretically, they should survive perfectly. But there is the heat to consider, because everything is added hot and heated well to allow everything to combine. I haven't tried HP yet, but doing exactly what you mentioned is at the top of my list to try. I'd love to be able to make a small batch soap with superfatted borage oil for psoriasis.

Be warned that you can't trust what you hear on every YouTube video, whether or not they are associated with a purveyor of soapmaking materials. If that is who I think it is(and I am 99% sure that it is), she also says that HP soap is "cured" and ready to sell the next day. That is not true. I have also found some other glaring un-truths and half-truths, but none quite so egregious as that one.

 

[sassanellat]

Be warned that you can't trust what you hear on every YouTube video, whether or not they are associated with a purveyor of soapmaking materials. If that is who I think it is(and I am 99% sure that it is), she also says that HP soap is "cured" and ready to sell the next day. That is not true. I have also found some other glaring un-truths and half-truths, but none quite so egregious as that one.

*nods* I noticed that there were some problems with some of the things she said. She's also fairly inconsistent, has terrible safety technique, and later she implies that she cuts corners because she "can't be patient to wait for more than 2 weeks" for a cure. It's why in my first post, I wanted to try some HP out, adding additional superfat at the end, and see how it went, rather than just believing (especially with a delicate oil). It does make perfect sense that if you complete the reaction, you should be able to add additional oils and inclusions at the end if it will survive the final heating to get everything evenly distributed.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You don't need to heat again - add it in while it is cooler but still fluid (sodium lactate will help here) and it will stir in no worries