50/50 solution and additional liquid question

[MommaSoaper]

Hi all! Me again I have a question regarding the 50-50 lye solution. I’m making much larger batches of soaps in 18 5 lb molds. I’d like to break the batch up for two fragrances. Before using 50/50 solution, this wasn’t a problem. However now, the batch is accelerating trace much faster.

I’ve been adding the additional water to the batch of oils before the lye solution. Should I be adding in the water after the lye solution and light trace is in effect? I was watching a video where they said that the water should go in later so that it doesn’t reactivate and heat the lye up. Then another YouTuber added the water into the oils so idk Horse before the cart, chicken or the egg… lol

I appreciate your input as I learn to scale.

Happy holidays friends!

 

[not_ally]

When I master batch, I always dissolve/mix water soluble additives (sorbitol, sodium lactate, edta) into the extra water/liquid and then mix that into the master batch lye-water 50/50 mix before adding the combination to the oils. I don't even remember why I started doing it that way (I'm sure I read it here!), but I think it made sense to me because it seemed most like the non-masterbatch process, ie; adding the whole lye-water mix to the oils at the same time. I wait until the MB and the additional liquid are both close to RT and to each other's temps and I don't notice any big temperature spikes upon mixing them or adding to the oils.

It doesn't seem to accelerate trace in any noticeable way (in contrast to a non-masterbatched lye mix, I mean.) I do use a pretty slow tracing oil mix, though, I don't know if that is the reason that it stays slow, rather than where and to what the additional water is added.

I know I've seen videos where people add the extra liquid to the oils, it's interesting to hear that there's a potential for acceleration based on when you put it in.

 

[MommaSoaper]

When I master batch, I always dissolve/mix water soluble additives (sorbitol, sodium lactate, edta) into the extra water/liquid and then mix that into the master batch lye-water 50/50 mix before adding the combination to the oils. I don't even remember why I started doing it that way (I'm sure I read it here!), but I think it made sense to me because it seemed most like the non-masterbatch process, ie; adding the whole lye-water mix to the oils at the same time. I wait until the MB and the additional liquid are both close to RT and to each other's temps and I don't notice any big temperature spikes upon mixing them or adding to the oils.

It doesn't seem to accelerate trace in any noticeable way (in contrast to a non-masterbatched lye mix, I mean.) I do use a pretty slow tracing oil mix, though, I don't know if that is the reason that it stays slow, rather than where and to what the additional water is added.

I know I've seen videos where people add the extra liquid to the oils, it's interesting to hear that there's a potential for acceleration based on when you put it in.

The video I watched was on soapequipment.com. They have quite a few up there and I listened to two different methods. When you add more water to the 50/50 solution does it heat up the lye again? I know heard that on the video. I’m curious because I haven’t been able to add the silk since I use ice to master batch. If I could add the silk when I add the additional liquid to the solution, that would be amazing!

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your time!

 

[dmcgee5034]

Hi @MommaSoaper -
I have done both ways, and found my trace accelerated much faster when I added the additional liquid to my oils separately from me 50/50 MB Lye, so I’ve learned the lesson and don’t do it that way now.
Yes, when you add the additional liquid to your MB lye it does heat up, but I don’t know that it’s enough heat to dissolve your silk since I haven’t tried it.

 

[MommaSoaper]

Hi @MommaSoaper -
I have done both ways, and found my trace accelerated much faster when I added the additional liquid to my oils separately from me 50/50 MB Lye, so I’ve learned the lesson and don’t do it that way now.
Yes, when you add the additional liquid to your MB lye it does heat up, but I don’t know that it’s enough heat to dissolve your silk since I haven’t tried it.

Thank you for responding. I added the extra water to the lye solution and threw in some silk to see what would happen. The lye solution reheated up to almost 200 degrees and the silk looks like it mostly dissolved. Good that it dissolved, not good that the solution heated up so high. I’ll have to wait to soap but that lesson has been learned. Wondering if water should be added at thin trace instead. Doesn’t help with the addition of silk but might help with trace issue. Balancing act! Thanks again

 

[Nona'sFarm]

When I master batch, I always dissolve/mix water soluble additives (sorbitol, sodium lactate, edta) into the extra water/liquid and then mix that into the master batch lye-water 50/50 mix before adding the combination to the oils. I don't even remember why I started doing it that way (I'm sure I read it here!), but I think it made sense to me because it seemed most like the non-masterbatch process, ie; adding the whole lye-water mix to the oils at the same time. I wait until the MB and the additional liquid are both close to RT and to each other's temps.

I follow this approach as well. Works well for me.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I almost always add my "split" water (with the dissolved water soluble ingredients - sodium citrate and sugar or sorbitol) to the oils and stick blend them in before I add the MB lye. This is because I don't like waiting for the temperature of the lye solution to come down after adding extra water to masterbatched lye. This approach doesn't cause any issues for me, perhaps because I lower the starting temperature of my melted fats a little bit to account for how much "extra" heat is generated when the MB lye is added after the additional water. For context, I usually use a final lye concentration of 40%.

 

[MommaSoaper]

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I follow this approach as well. Works well for me.

Tried this approach yesterday and it worked well. The only downside was that the lye solution heated back up to 200 degrees once additional water was added.

I almost always add my "split" water (with the dissolved water soluble ingredients - sodium citrate and sugar or sorbitol) to the oils and stick blend them in before I add the MB lye. This is because I don't like waiting for the temperature of the lye solution to come down after adding extra water to masterbatched lye. This approach doesn't cause any issues for me, perhaps because I lower the starting temperature of my melted fats a little bit to account for how much "extra" heat is generated when the MB lye is added after the additional water. For context, I usually use a final lye concentration of 40%.

thank you for your response. What temperature are your fats at when you soap?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

What temperature are your fats at when you soap?

It depends on the recipe. To avoid stearic spots in the finished soap, I let the melted fats cool to around 95F if I’m using lard + tallow, or butters, as my palmitic & stearic-rich fats. For lard solo, a temp as low as 85F will still produce good results using my recipe and methods. When I use soy wax (GW 415), I start at with the melted fats in the 115-120F range. I have more or less stopped using palm, but that would fall into the first group for me. I can get away with slightly cooler fats if I know a fragrance or essential oil is going to accelerate or heat up the soap. For context, all of my recipes have 20% or less coconut oil, 29-30% palmitic+stearic (“longevity“ in the results from the SMF calculator), and most include sugar or sorbitol at 1.5% of fat weight and are made at 40% lye concentration.

 

[AliOop]

Until recently, my process was to dissolve my additives in the additional liquid. As soon as everything else was ready to go, I combined the additional liquid mix with my MB lye solution, and then immediately added that to the fats before it had time to start heating up.

That's moot for me know, as I've started dissolving my additives in my MB lye solution, but maybe it could help if you tried that, @MommaSoaper.

Please let us know what you try, and what works for you!

 

[jeanemarie]

That's moot for me know, as I've started dissolving my additives in my MB lye solution,

So how do you know how much sugar/sorbitol and sodium citrate to add to your total MB lye solution?

I’m loving 1:1 master batching the lye but have the same issue of my batter heating up and accelerating. I had been adding my additional water/milk/aloe directly to oils before the lye.

 

[AliOop]

So how do you know how much sugar/sorbitol and sodium citrate to add to your total MB lye solution?

I’m loving 1:1 master batching the lye but have the same issue of my batter heating up and accelerating. I had been adding my additional water/milk/aloe directly to oils before the lye.

Sorry, I read this post earlier but then forgot to answer it.

Since I tend to use the same MB oil recipe for the vast majority of my soaps, I used that recipe to reverse-engineer the amounts needed. Hopefully I can explain my process in a way that makes sense to a reader!

Enter a 1000g batch of your most-used soap recipe into the soap calculator.

UN-check the MB lye solution option. This is to simplify the math needed to calculate additives. You can change it back when you are all done - or just delete this "recipe" when you have finished (keep notes though!).

Set the lye concentration to whatever % you typically use for soaping: 33%, 35%, 40% etc. This doesn't affect the additive calculations, since it doesn't change the amount of lye needed (only the water).

Set the SF to whatever % you typically use for soaping: 2%, 5%, etc. This will affect the additive calculations since it changes the amount of lye.

Enter your additives below that as a % of oil weight. (For me that is sorbitol and sodium citrate at 1% of oil weight for each).

Go over to the column that lists the amount of each ingredient and additive.

Find the amount of NaOH, and the amount of your first additive.

Divide the amount of additive by the amount of NaOH to get the percentage of that additive needed for the MB lye solution.

Repeat that for each additive.

Measure out (separately) the water, the additives, and the NaOH needed to make your MB lye solution at your preferred strength.

Before adding your NaOH to the water, dissolve your additives in the water, at the percentages you determined.

(At this point, I also add tussah silk to the water, but I only eyeball it, since it's too light to weigh).

Now add the NaOH to the water. Stir to dissolve.

Voila, you have your MB lye solution with additives at the desired percentage for your most common recipe.

NOTE: since the proper amount of lye will be different for any recipe that uses another oil combo, the percentage of additives in your MB solution obviously will be "off" from (slightly higher or lower than) what you would normally use for that recipe. But it's close enough that I'm ok with that.

 

[jeanemarie]

@AliOop - Thank you! Your directions were so concise and understandable!
Between you and @Mobjack Bay this has been the best thread ever!