100% coconut oil liquid soap opaque

[Jaslyn]

Hi, I'm trying to make a shampoo for my son who has dreadlocks and ragingrootsstudio suggested a 100% Liquid CO superfatted at 3%.

Is it true that this soap will not be clear after cooking? I cooked for 6hrs in tot. and started testing after 3 hrs. Now I've read only 0% SF LS are clear.
Recipe: 500g CO, 131g KOH, 400g Distilled H20. (Brambleberry Lye Calculator)

I checked my calculations with another site, also using 90% KOH but get a different result... 138g KOH and less water. Is that correct? Why are the calculations different?

My son would fire me if I ruined his dreadlocks and would like to know if I can use this LS or not.

Thanks
Jasy

 

[Susie]

You need to zap test that soap to see if it is safe. Many things affect clarity, but if it is safe, it is safe.

Also, you can use up to 3% superfat in liquid soap, and still have clear liquid soap.

ETA: According to Soapee.com, you have 8.3% superfat. That would be why it is not clear. Please note that clear soap is not absolutely necessary. Safe soap is a different situation than clear soap. Clarity is purely aesthetic.

In this case, however, once you dilute, you will have a layer of fat floating on top of the soap. I would probably mix 8 g of KOH with 24 g of water, and stir and cook that into the soap. That should bring you down to 3% superfat.

 

[Jaslyn]

Zapping, testing and spitting

Thank you Suzie. I zap tested the soap. Sorry I never did that crazy kid stunt and don't think I'll start now. Does it zap straight away or after a few seconds? I dont get any zap, just a funny taste and a slight "tingle" about 5 seconds afterwards. Not sure if this is the zap or just the taste of soap in my mouth.

For Dilution, would 1:3 paste:water be good?

Your suggestion for adding more KOh and water to reach 3% has given me hope. Then I would cook and sample for clarity. How long do you think this will take, I don't want to overcook. I will also source proper ph testers. At the moment my kitchen is full of chopped beetroot and cabbage that I tried to use as Ph indicators.

 

[hmlove1218]

If it zaps, you'll feel it right away. A good rule of thumb is if you have to wonder if you got zapped, you didn't. Zap is a sensation, not a taste. What you're tasting is simply the soap.

Fun fact, coconut oil is what gives soap the "soapy" taste we're all familiar with.

As for your other questions, I'll let someone else answer as I've never made LS.

 

[Susie]

You should never have to wonder if you got zapped, as stated by hmlove1218. If you have to ask, you didn't.

The new cook should not take long. You only need to get the KOH/H2O mixed into the paste. You may actually need to add a bit more water to help it integrate.

As for pH, unless you are using a preservative, you need not worry about pH. If it does not zap, it is safe. If you are going to use a preservative, get a pH meter that you can calibrate. Not strips. Then you dilute the soap properly for pH readings.

Dilution depends a lot on which oils you use, and how much batch water you used. I would start with half the paste weight in water and add as needed. Take good notes on how much you use, so you can start there next time. You can also store the paste for future use, so don't feel like you need to dilute it all right now.

This is going to be a bit harsh for shampoo. Are you really sure you want to do this? I would actually recommend a good shampoo bar over 100% CO soap. I use 100% CO soap with 0% SF for dishes and laundry.

This is an excellent, albeit long, thread on shampoo bars. It is so loaded with information that I would really suggest that you read the whole thing.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30946&highlight=shampoo+genny

 

[Jaslyn]

Harsh Shampoo

Hi, Thank you both for confirming I don't have to worry about the ph. The paste is diluting as we speak and then will add the extra KOH. I've seen lots of people add citric acid. Would you advise doing this and at what %. One step at a time. My OO LS was a breeze compared to this, I need to pay more attention to the lye calculators... lesson learned.

I don't have any of those wonderful preservatives or ph meter yet, but they are on my long shopping list for when I visit my sister in Florida in January.

Yes I agree it sounds pretty harsh as a shampoo, (I appreciate you pointing that out) no way I'm using it, but they really don't want soft silky hair as that would cause the dreads to unravel and become furry. The advice is from a dreadlock site that make and sell dreadlock shampoo. They also advise not to buy any shampoo with oils not saponified, any PEG, PPG, ‘moisturizer, lubricant, emollient, humectant, or conditioner’that will build up as residue!. They also advocate using an ACV rinse after shampooing, I guess this compensates for harsh shampoos and hard water. Anyway I promised i would try and if it doesn't work out I'll find another use for it. One good thing, I'm really excited about all those foamy bubbles! The shampoo bars apparently leave more residue than LS in the hair which is why I opted for the LS although it has a higher PH.

 

[Seawolfe]

Did you use distilled water to make the paste and for diluting? My LS cleared up when I went from home filtered to distilled.

I do believe that citric acid needs to be added to the water before you mix in the lye AND you need to do some calculations to up the lye to accommodate the sodium citrate being made.

The amount of water needed to dilute depends on how much water was in the original recipe AND the types of oils you used - so as stated above, start with half the weight of the paste in distilled water in a crockpot and go from there.

 

[Jaslyn]

Good News! After diluting and adding the additional KOH as Susie suggested, the soap is lovely and clear and still no zap. I'm sorry to say a skin has formed on the top and a bit on the sides of the pot. Should I just try stirring it back in whilst heating or adding more distilled water? Thank you for holding my hand through this process.

The original recipe said to add citric at the end.Ha, now I'm really confused about dilution rates... I thought it was just a personal preference. OMG I'm clueless

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I would check out the two processes from Susie and Irishlass - both avoid a lot of the headache and even resulted in me ending up with some liquid soap!

 

[IrishLass]

Good News! After diluting and adding the additional KOH as Susie suggested, the soap is lovely and clear and still no zap. I'm sorry to say a skin has formed on the top and a bit on the sides of the pot. Should I just try stirring it back in whilst heating or adding more distilled water? Thank you for holding my hand through this process.

The original recipe said to add citric at the end.Ha, now I'm really confused about dilution rates... I thought it was just a personal preference. OMG I'm clueless

I'd add a little bit more distilled water....but just a little at a time, like maybe just a mL or a half mL. I've overdone things before by adding just a titch too much. lol

Dilution rates can indeed be personal....but only after a certain point has been reached first, which is when the soap no longer forms a film or a globby top. Once that point has been reached, then you can make it thinner to your liking if you want.

Regarding the citric acid- be careful how much you use because it will increase your superfat %. But if you use sodium citrate instead of citric acid, it won't mess with your superfat.


IrishLass

 

[TwystedPryncess]

My daughter's exboyfriend now has dreadlocks. I should try this for him. (The new boyfriend might get mad at us all if I do. LOL).

He would truly appreciate it, though. He's a sweet little thing and even though he's moved two hours away, when he comes home to see his family he always stops in to see me and grabs some soap. (I did scold him like crazy for turning his pretty long blond hair into dreads though. Sigh.)

Oh---and rasta hats--I was supposed to crochet him some rasta hats. Better get on that, too.

 

[Susie]

Regarding the citric acid- be careful how much you use because it will increase your superfat %. But if you use sodium citrate instead of citric acid, it won't mess with your superfat.


IrishLass

^This. You just resolved your superfat issue. Don't add more acid, you will only have to add more KOH/H2O to balance it out. I would suggest you tell him to rinse with a citric acid/water rinse to lay down the cuticle of the hair.

 

[Arimara]

My daughter's exboyfriend now has dreadlocks. I should try this for him. (The new boyfriend might get mad at us all if I do. LOL).

He would truly appreciate it, though. He's a sweet little thing and even though he's moved two hours away, when he comes home to see his family he always stops in to see me and grabs some soap. (I did scold him like crazy for turning his pretty long blond hair into dreads though. Sigh.)

Oh---and rasta hats--I was supposed to crochet him some rasta hats. Better get on that, too.

If he and your daughter are on good terms and he's a respectable young man, your DD's boyfriend may just have to deal with it.

But why do people want dreads? That's a lot of work, no matter who's hair it is.

 

[Jaslyn]

I'm glad that cycle is over. I tried adding tiny bits of water but it continued to gel on the top and sides. I then boiled 1/4 C H2O in another SS pot and dissolved the gel in that. A new layer of gel kept on forming on the soap batch even though I had the lid on it and I eventually had to dissolve the whole batch in the other pot, transferring into another container when it cooled and no more gel soap would dissolve, then reheating more water to dissolve the rest. I now have two mason jars of liquid "soap" I originally wanted to store the soap in it's gel form and dilute as needed. Could I have added the additional 8g of KOH much later or is it only within 24 hours for rebatching liquid soap? I'm just thinking if it doesn't work out as a shampoo I could add the KOH diff to superfat at 0% and use it as a dishwashing liquid.

Troubleshooting: I think it was my fault. I got impatient when first diluting and used a stick blender to mix in those remaining obstinate pieces. I immediately saw a change in the mixture. Any thoughts of what happened? The first layer of gel I scooped off was almost like melted plastic. I'm wondering if the gelling was a reaction to the enamel pot (intact) as this didn't happen in the ss pot. I used KTC 100% pure coconut oil Premium quality bought at the Asian store. Maybe too cheap. I did google it and the research came back positive for use in cosmetics and soap.

@ TwistedPryncess
a link to DIY recipes for Dreadlocks you might want to pass on to your DD Ex http://ragingrootsstudio.com/category/dreadlock-education/recipes/ They have a wonderful Aloe Vera Dread Quencher locking Spray that I make for my son. Somewhere on that site is also the ACV rinse and valuable information on shampoos... http://ragingrootsstudio.com/shampoo-list/

So citric acid is more a chelator, sodium citrate a PH controller, anti-oxident and has preservative properties. Good information to know Thank you IrishLass.

@ Suzie and IrishLass could you please link me to your LS process and information on diluting %.

 

[Susie]

IrishLass' tutorial is in here:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

And here is mine:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Sodium citrate is being used as a chelator in the above usage. Not just pH adjustment.

Don't use enamel pots for soap. Stick with SS.

 

[DeeAnna]

"... They also advocate using an ACV rinse after shampooing, I guess this compensates for harsh shampoos and hard water...."

Some comments --

A rinse with ACV (apple cider vinegar) or any other acid will not remove soap scum that forms from using lye-based soap in hard water.

What an ACV rinse does is help the cuticle of the hair strand to lay back down after it's been roughened up by a lye-based soap. All lye-based soap will raise up the cuticle of the hair. In my experience (fine wavy caucasian hair), an acid rinse doesn't entirely fix the problem -- over time the damage from the soap accumulates and my hair gets very dry and rough if I use lye soap regularly on my hair. But maybe this is a good thing for dreads?

You need a chelator to help minimize the soap scum ... and use soft water if at all possible. Sodium citrate is a chelator, and that's the role citric acid plays when it is added to soap. Citric acid in soap will not stay as citric acid very long -- it rapidly reacts with lye to form sodium citrate.

If you don't allow for the extra lye that the citric acid will consume, then the superfat in the soap will rise. That's what gets newbie liquid soap makers into trouble. There are a fair number of LS recipes on the internet that call for adding ACV, citric acid, lemon juice, or other acids to liquid soap. When beginning liquid soap makers blindly follow these recipes, they get into trouble with their soap separating, not saponifying properly, staying cloudy, etc.

The exact same things happen to bar (NaOH) soap too, it's just that the consequences are not as visually obvious in a bar soap as they are in a liquid soap.

The pH of a properly made (not lye heavy) KOH based soap is not any different than the pH of an equivalent NaOH soap. Not sure where that idea is coming from ... maybe more wishful thinking from the internet?

If you want a higher pH soap, make one with olive oil, not coconut. Oleic acid soap is somewhat higher in pH than a lauric acid soap. Or a blend of the two with some castor. A soap with these fats would clean effectively and rinse cleanly. I would worry that a 100% CO soap would irritate the scalp.

 

[Jaslyn]

All your comments got me thinking about how I could improve this "shampoo" for my son. I researched a lot of recommended Dreadlock shampoos (DLS) and found about 50% are lye based (liquid and bar) PH 8-10), some are surfactant based and one both. A lot use black soap, shea and Neem. Most have EO Neem rosemary, lavender, teatree, peppermint and patchouli. Also Aloe vera and bark extracts. I also found 2 well reviewed 100% saponified CO LS, and one with CO, castor oil and hemp. So I'm not too concerned that the shampoo is lye based or about the scum (there are fixes) but more about the irritation it might cause on the scalp as mentioned. I stickblended some CO shampoo and Fresh Aloe vera; It's still clear and actually improved the viscosity but I don't know if it's effecting the SF or will separate.

This is what was written on the DL sites:
Normal shampoo heavily damages DL. They contain humectants which attract moisture, cause smelly DL and mould. The faster drying the better. Normal shampoo leave conditioners, which builds as a residue and increases drying time.
The only requirement in a DLS is it's cleansing properties which has to be liquid, bar soaps are harder to wash out. ( www.dreadlocksshampoo.co.uk and www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com)

How would you formulate a DLS if your son, daughter ... or husband came home with a new hairdo? Any Takers?

 

[DeeAnna]

".. I stickblended some CO shampoo and Fresh Aloe vera..."

I don't have any suggestions about shampoo specifically for dreadlocks, but I can say this -- diluting soap paste with aloe is a good invitation to microbial growth, regardless of what the bloggers say. The recommendation is to dilute with distilled water only. If you are determined to use aloe for dilution, you need to also use a preservative that works in high pH.

 

[goodjoan]

All your comments got me thinking about how I could improve this "shampoo" for my son.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I was wondering how this soap/shampoo worked for your son? Did you ever make any tweaks to it that you're willing to share? I have a friend with dreadlocks that asked me to make him some products for his hair. Specifically, to help his hair smell nice. There is a giant sucking void of information on the 'net about soap safe for dreads!

I'm leaning toward trying the 103% CO KOH that you started with but, not having dreads, it seems so harsh! I am pondering the use of other oils, or using aloe in place of some of the water. Everything I start to consider seems to add to the possibility of residue that wouldn't rinse out or would dry and flake off. Maybe the simple CO soap, with an ACV rinse suggestion, and a mix of light, scented oils that he could use as a conditioner after, that would still wash out without too much effort but give him the nice scent he's after. (his hair doesn't smell bad, it doesn't smell like anything, he wants it to smell nice when its dry.)

 

[Jaslyn]

Dreadlock shampoo

I know, the lack of information nearly drove me mad. I was also concerned about the CO LS being too harsh and in the end I opted for making a mild surfactant based shampoo with lovely smelling (and scalp soothing) hydrosols and an aloevera dread quencher locking spray for afterwards. He's only been using it for a few weeks but I've noticed less furriness and he's stopped complaining about an irritated scalp. http://ragingrootsstudio.com/dread-quencher-locking-spray/. A great site for Dreadlock information.

If you want to make a surfactant based shampoo, I can give you my recipe, right or wrong as it may be. swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com has information on how to make surfactant based shampoos... be prepared to do a lot of reading. Good luck