Your thoughts on bubbly/creamy numbers

[leeleetrue]

I'm reworking a couple recipes with my new found knowledge of the importance of lowering my castor oil percentages. I've noticed several of you advise not using castor oil over 5% in body bars. I've historically used much more than that (up to about 17% in some cases), and I can't say I've noticed a slimy feel like some say they do. But someone replied on an earlier thread I started that too high a castor percentage can contribute to DOS, so I'm working on two recipes (one for adults, one for babies/kids), using shea, olive, coconut, palm, castor, grapeseed and avocado (minus the grapeseed in the baby/kid bar). When I drop my castor oil to even 10%, the Bubbly number in Soap Calc is at 14, the bottom of the recommended range. Dropping it to 5% means a bubbly number of 9. In asking myself what I like about certain handmade soaps more than others, lather definitely tops the list, with conditioning just behind it. Since it contributes to bubbly AND creamy, the numbers really suffer when I lower the castor. I don't use lard or tallow, and I'd rather not add sugar to every batch to make up for lost bubbles. Those of you who really like the lather your soap gives, what are your numbers? Do you go by what the calculator says, or work with the other numbers and hope for the best?

Thanks!

 

[Meganmischke]

I find using pko with co really helps with bubbles. I typically split the co amount with pko. I really like the pko co castor combo for bubbles. You dont need a lot of castor for bubbles, in fact castor alone is not really bubbly. Castor is used to make more stable bubbles. I personally like 10% co 10% pko and 4-8% castor. Sugar also really does help and it is pretty easy to add. When I open a new gallon of distilled water I add about a half a cup right in the gallon. Just shake it up a bit and it is good to go. I also feel the numbers can be misleading. I hope this helps.

 

[DeeAnna]

The Lather Lover's swap results are something for you to study: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amathiasoapworks/6878518116/in/set-72157629324839760/

and another article that relates: http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/secret-to-the-best-soap-recipe/

 

[shunt2011]

I agree with using PKO and CO together. I use Castor at about 6%. Castor doesn't actually make it bubbly it makes the bubbly more stable. Coconut, PKO and Babassu contribute to bubble factor.

 

[leeleetrue]

that last bit about coconut, pko and babassu surprises me. i'd read that those are the only three oils that will contribute to cleansing, and castor is for bubbly lather. But checking out SoapCalc, I see you're right; those three have great bubbly numbers. I will say that castor has equal bubbly and creamy(stable) lather numbers though, at 90, so I think it is often used for both, which is what I do.

I kind of balk at adding an additional oil to my regimen, because I'm pretty heavily invested in just using those seven oils I listed in my stuff. Also, I'd worry that adding pko may make my soap less mild, which is definitely something I use as a selling point; plus my skin just can't handle a higher cleansing number.

I'm curious what everyone's ideal bubbly and creamy numbers are, or what they are in your favorite recipes. I'll say that I've been using some Sweet Sally's Soap, and I'm in awe of the perfect lather

 

[lenarenee]

Just to make things more interesting for you, let me tell you that two of my lowest bubbly soaps are two of my favorite latherers. My "13" (soap calc bubble #) lathers markedly better than my "20". In fact, my "20" is the most beautiful, and professional looking soap I've made. (I'm a new hobbyist) It's cured for 2 months, and I'm still embarrassed at it's lather....was hoping to use it as gifts.

 

[jules92207]

I tend to use from 20-25% coconut, 5% castor, and then fill the rest of the bar with shea, avocado, palm, olive, etc and usually end up around 15-18 for bubbly. That seems to be a good range for me and I am happy with the bubbles.

 

[Dorymae]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I'm sure many will disagree with me, however I say forget the numbers. Some of my favorite soaps look like they would be horrid if you just look at the numbers.

Honestly I think the numbers are a good "guide", by that I mean if they are remotely close I would try it and see for myself how it is. A lower bubbly or creamy number may still give you a good lather. Don't let the numbers stop you from trying something a bit different.

Just because castor oil or grapeseed oil do not have a long shelf life does not mean you will have problems with DOS. Yes your chances are statistically higher but you can also counter that by adding oils higher in antioxidants. Adding a small amount of vitamin E helps significantly. You can also counter problems with hardness using other oils.

 

[Obsidian]

My go to base recipe is 18 bubbly and thats using 20% palm kernel or coconut. I have one recipe though that is only 9 bubbly and it lathers fine, maybe not big fluffy lather but still lather and its nice to use.

 

[jules92207]

I also tend to go for more moisturizing recipes cause I have dry skin so my bubbles are usually less than the low range. Truth is they all still have bubbles so I agree to not base a recipe solely on the soapcalc numbers.

 

[cmzaha]

I am with Dorymae on this I do not worry in the least about bubbly numbers or to many others. For soap I gear towards women I keep CO at 15-18% and no other cleansing/bubbly oils. For men I usually use 20% coconut with approx 3% superfat for most soaps.

 

[CaraBou]

I don't sell so I find myself always developing new recipes. My bubbly numbers typically range between about 18-25 and my creamies from 25 to 30, plus or minus. But I find cure time makes a bigger difference than the lather numbers. I like using a 4 month rotation, though I realize this may not work well for someone who sells a lot of volume.

I also think bars with a higher ratio of hard oils can handle more castor than those heavier on soft oils. I don't know why that would affect the slime, or what the ideal ratio is, but I think there's something to it. I've also never had an issue with DOS and I think hard:soft can affect that, too. I have lowered my castor over time in response to posts here, but more than anything, I liked what it did for my pocketbook.

If you liked your high castor bars and they withstood the test of time, maybe you don't need to change. I commend you for paying attention to what people are saying, but don't undervalue your own experience either.

I also love the idea of adding sugar to my gallon of water right from the get-go. I'd have to write it on the jug just so I didn't forget, and possibly have another distilled water source handy for recipes that need to stay cool, but it would be handy for most of my circumstances.

 

[Be Love]

I have made a 20% castor oil soap with no slimy feel and no DOS, soap calc bubbly # was 36. The few bars I have left are about 8 months old now with no sign of DOS and the bar feels really good to use, although not necessarily 'better' lather than some with only 5%. The bars did feel a bit 'rubbery' (for lack of a better word) until cured. I agree that using a high castor % is harder on the pocket book though! Generally my base recipes run around 26 or so for bubbles. I added sugar to one of my recent batches and there is a noticeable difference in lather. If you don't want to change the oils you use, using sugar might be something to consider.

 

[leeleetrue]

Thanks, everybody! I'm feeling emboldened about my recipes choices. Oh, and I completely forgot in my last post to thank DeeAnna for the links, so thank you very much I'll definitely check those out before I settle on a recipe.

I'd honestly never considered castor contributing to DOS, but I've had major issues with it in the past, and minor issues at present. In an earlier thread I'd asked about DOS, the INS number, and how to make a decent baby soap, and someone mentioned that too high a castor percentage combined with my high superfat might be contributing to the problem.

On a side note, I feel a little bit crazy messing with my recipes right now, since I do a 2 month cure (i use a high percentage of shea butter, and the long cure does my soap good) which is putting all these experiments a little too close to Christmas for my comfort level, lol. Fingers crossed!

 

[Candybee]

I have to go with others here and say don't worry too much what the numbers are in soapcalc. Soapcalc I use to get my lye and liquid amounts and an indicator of the soap's conditioning qualities.

After making soap for a few years I have started going more and more into revising my recipes into more creamy and conditioning. This lowers my bubbly, cleansing, and often hardness. But I have to say I am loving these soaps much better. I have also found that I am not missing any of the lovely lather I want. I found lowering my castor and coconut oil does not mean I have to necessarily compromise lather. Rather, I am experiencing the best lather yet while having an extra gentle and conditioning bar.

I think the key is to keep experimenting until you get the results that you want. For me it took a few years. I am so glad I listened to others and started using soapcalc as a guide and to not try to make the perfect soap based on soapcalc numbers but on what my own skin was telling me.

 

[IrishLass]

Hmm..I've never heard of castor causing DOS. That's a new one to me. It's a pretty stable oil with a shelf-life of at least a year. I've been using it for years at a very high rate in a few of my formulas (between 20% and 25%) and I've never had a spot of DOS in them (I still have a few bars left that are over 5 years old and no DOS).

I agree with the others about taking SoapCalc's numbers with a grain of salt. The way I use it is more like a plumb-line of sorts. Once I had a few formulas under my belt that I really loved, I jotted down the quality and fatty acid numbers from them and used them to formulate future formulas.

For what its worth, my keeper all-veggie formula in which I use a 28% combo of coconut/PKO/babassu and superfat at 6% has these #'s:

Bubbly 28
Creamy 28
Conditioning 59

My keeper tallow/lard formula in which I use a 31% combo of PKO/coconut and superfat @ 8% has these numbers:

Bubbly 32%
Creamy 34%
Conditioning 51%

I use 10% castor and 11.5% castor in them respectively.

I find the castor to give a really nice, 'oomphy body' to the lather.

If you haven't figured it out already, I'm a bit of lather lover. :razz:


IrishLass

 

[wetshavingproducts]

I like to think more in terms of what a particular ingredient brings to the soap instead of what the numbers mean. Because honestly, those numbers don't mean anything to me. I can't really translate them into the real world results. I've tried, but can't wrap my head around it other than as a very general guide.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...those numbers don't mean anything to me..."

I have some information, then, that may be helpful. The numbers from soapcalc are not made up out of thin air. They are the % of certain groups of fatty acids. For example, the "cleansing number" is the combined % of lauric and myristic acids -- these are the fatty acids in coconut oil, PKO, and babassu. These fatty acids along with the ricinoleic acid from castor make up the "bubbly number".

Here's a link to something I wrote awhile back on this topic: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=383997&postcount=17

And yes "the numbers" are useful as a rough guide; they do not give answers that are written in stone. Even though "the numbers" just indicate trends, however, that can be very useful when designing a recipe.