Woooah there horsey! (How can I slow it down?)

[kdm]

Hi. Me again. :-|
Couple of batches into my sop making "career" now. I've 3D printed a flexible mould to try and emboss a logo on my bars. One teency problem I predict: each time I've poured my soap into my mound, it's gelled very very quickly. I do not think it will stay liquid long enough to fill up the voids in the logo.
I think I might be "whizzing" it too much with the whizzer, but I don't think I've ever seen this mythical "trace" thing.
Anyone got any thoughts on how I can slow down the gelling? Do you reckon I'm over-whizzing? Is that a noob thing?
Thanks.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

That sounds like you're soaping quite hot for a “cold” process. You're keeping your oils very warm in fear of false trace? Any margin to increase your lye concentration? (less water = higher temperatures needed to enter gel phase)

You might, for distraction, give a castile recipe a try, where all ingredients are at room temperature. Batters from mostly olive oil give you all time of the world to explore all stages of a soap in slow-motion. Half an hour of stick-blending are not unheard of. Unmoulding after one week. Half a year of curing.

Other culprits: weird lye, weird oils, weird water, weird EOs/FOs/additives, soaping gear (mixing pot, spatulas, blender, moulds) not properly cleaned – soap batter residues can vastly accelerate reaction. Or soap goblins mucking around with you.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Yes - I think you're overusing the whizzy thing. It's definitely a noob mistake. Don't use it as a constant whizz, just stir it round the bowl and pulse it for a second at a time for about 20 seconds (i.e 10 pulses, with stirring all the while). Lift it out of the bowl and swirl it round above the batter and see if you can see the 'trace' as it drips on the surface. It might only be for a sec, before it flattens into the surface of the soap batter. Also look for oil slicks on the top of your batter mix. If you see them, it needs more mixing, so stir those through with a spatula, and then go another round of the 20 seconds of pulsing. That should just about do it. Put your whizzer down. Once it starts to thicken too much it won't stop and it will just get thicker and thicker every second you leave it standing ( even worse if you keep stirring, and much, much worse if you keep stickblending).

Gelling is rare at the stage you are taking about - it usually happens in the mold after pouring if it is warm enough. Are you just talking about it thickening up too much to pour maybe?

All the weird things that Resolvable Owl has just mentioned could also be contributing to the problem. We won't know unless you tell what's in it ( including quantities).

 

[ResolvableOwl]

IIRC your recipe is high in animal fats. There might be a relation to @Peachy Clean Soap 's recent cautionary tale about rancid lard?

 

[kdm]

Gelling is rare at the stage you are taking about - it usually happens in the mold after pouring if it is warm enough. Are you just talking about it thickening up too much to pour maybe?

Thickening, yes. I assumed that was the gel stage starting.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

No, that's the trace you're looking after!

 

[TheGecko]

Couple of batches into my sop making "career" now. I've 3D printed a flexible mould to try and emboss a logo on my bars. One teency problem I predict: each time I've poured my soap into my mound, it's gelled very very quickly. I do not think it will stay liquid long enough to fill up the voids in the logo.

I think I might be "whizzing" it too much with the whizzer, but I don't think I've ever seen this mythical "trace" thing.

Anyone got any thoughts on how I can slow down the gelling? Do you reckon I'm over-whizzing? Is that a noob thing?

Yes, over using the stick blender (whizzer) is probably the number one mistake that new soap makers make. There are four basic stages to your batter...emulsification, light trace, medium trace and thick trace. Emulsification is when the oils/butters and water are just combined enough to not separate from each other...it's best viewed by looking at the surface of the head of your stick blender. Trace is more defined...if you have ever whipped egg whites or cream to 'soft peaks' or 'stiff peaks', it's a similar process. Light trace is like pancake batter, medium trace is like waffle batter, thick trace is like fudge brownies.

Sounds like you are whizzing your soap batter to the fudge brownie stage. When it comes to stick blending...less is more. Once you reach emulsification, put the SB down.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

IIRC your recipe is high in animal fats. There might be a relation to @Peachy Clean Soap 's recent cautionary tale about rancid lard?

Also consider your Fats & Oils expiration date' rancid oils can play havoc in many ways including fast trace. also keep the soap temp 95* that seems like a happy place. oh if your recipe is higher in unsaturated oils helps too for a more fluid recipe. SB very little, couple blitz then stir if top of soap looks oily blitz a couple more times. Its a look & feel, youll want to blitz fight the urge... less is more.

 

[kdm]

Naturally, I can't find the reference now, but I recalled reading fairly early on that temperature wasn't so terribly important if I worked slowly. As such, I've never monitored it. Yes, I've subsequently learned that there's NOTHING which ISN'T a factor!
So, my oils have been at "just melted" temperature (which I'd guess is about 40 or 50 centigrade and my lye has been at whatever temperature the exothermic dissolving produces (I think possibly also around 50 centigrade).
Should I let it all go back to room temp before mixing? Won't the oils re-solidify?

 

[AliOop]

Temperature isn't all that important as far as making soap goes - your soap will still be soap, even if the lye solution and oils are at high temps, or disparate temps. But temps are definitely important when it comes to how fast your batter traces. Room temperature soaping works for many - but your room temp might be very different from my room temp.

You might try making the lye solution the night before, or even master-batching the solution so you always have cooled solution on hand, ready to use. Just be sure to store it tightly covered until ready to use (I know you know that, but others reading this post may not). You can also make your lye solution using distilled water ice cubes, so that it never gets very hot from the start.

 

[Zing]

Welcome! When I was a noob, I was obsessed with temperatures. Now I soap when the lye solution and oil pot are just warm to the touch. I'll even soap at room temp the day after mixing my lye solution and my oils mixture.

I'll pile on also with the stick blending caution -- sorry! I use my blender mostly as a spoon and stir a lot. I do just a few 5 second bursts. I love that video above and have watched it a thousand times.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Won't the oils re-solidify?

Yes, but not instantly. Fats are a snake pit when it comes to solidification. Take cocoa butter for example (without diving too deep into context). At the 28°C of that experiment, it will solidify, but you'll have quite some time to work with it even in an undercooled melt. More so when multiple oils are mixed, and even more when constantly moving (stirring).
False trace is a real thing, but as long as your temperature isn't, say, >10°C below the melting point of your hardest oil, you'll be fine, and the worst thing to happen are stearic spots.
ETA: And then there is CPOP/forced gelling (or volcano in the most extreme case), that easily undoes any false trace once you're finished with designing the soap.

 

[TheGecko]

Naturally, I can't find the reference now, but I recalled reading fairly early on that temperature wasn't so terribly important if I worked slowly. As such, I've never monitored it. Yes, I've subsequently learned that there's NOTHING which ISN'T a factor!

So, my oils have been at "just melted" temperature (which I'd guess is about 40 or 50 centigrade and my lye has been at whatever temperature the exothermic dissolving produces (I think possibly also around 50 centigrade).

Should I let it all go back to room temp before mixing? Won't the oils re-solidify?

A lot of the recommendations for soaping temperatures is for the safety of the beginner soap maker. I would much rather have an accident with a 100F (38C) Lye Solution than 220F (104C) freshly made.

As for Hard Oils and Butters resolidifying...I've had my Hard Oils/Butters get a little cloudy after about an hour, but nothing solid.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Personally I find room temperature too cool for me. I use soy wax and even though it has the other oils mixed in to it, I think it does cause clumping/false trace if too cool. The coolest I go is about 35 degrees for both lye solution and oils. I usually soap at about 42 degrees, but I didn't know that in my first two years of soaping, because, like @Zing , i never took temps, I just held the outside of the bowl/jug and if it felt slightly warm as opposed to hot, then I was good to go. The only reason I started taking temps was because my step son had a temperature measuring thingy, which I thought was fun so I started taking them out of interest.

 

[kdm]

Mixed messages on temperature.

That sounds like you're soaping quite hot for a “cold” process. You're keeping your oils very warm in fear of false trace? Any margin to increase your lye concentration? (less water = higher temperatures needed to enter gel phase)

Temperature isn't all that important as far as making soap goes - your soap will still be soap, even if the lye solution and oils are at high temps, or disparate temps. But temps are definitely important when it comes to how fast your batter traces.

So, I'm thinking, I let my lye cool to room temp, let my oils cool until it looks like they're thinking about thickening, and my main takeaway is to work a lot less with the blenderiser.

Thanks!

 

[TheGecko]

So, I'm thinking, I let my lye cool to room temp, let my oils cool until it looks like they're thinking about thickening, and my main takeaway is to work a lot less with the blenderiser.

Yes and no. It is all about personal preference, your recipe and what you are trying to achieve. There are no absolutes in soap making...outside of not pouring water into your Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide (major no-no and dangerous). I master batch my oils and lye solution...if I'm just making a single color soap I just reheat my oils enough to not have stearic spots, pour in my lye, add colorant and scent, SB to medium trace and pour. If I'm doing swirls or layers then the process is a bit different...higher oil temps, add the scent, mixed to emulsion or sometimes with layers, just a really good whisk before separating. It also changes if I'm using a scent that accelerates or discolors.

Side note about Stick Blending - General rule of thumb is to use it as less as possible if you are wanting to do any more than make a single color soap and pour. How 'less' is dependent on your recipe...what oils, butters, additives you use and the size of your batch. If you're only working with two pounds of oils or less...you only need a few quick bursts and some stirring to reach emulsion. If you're making five to ten pounds, you'll need several 30-second bursts and stirring. Larger than that, you will find that you need full minutes. A recipes that is all soft oils will generally take longer to reach emulsion and/or trace than one that has hard oils. And the more hard oils you have, the less time you want to stick blend. My recipe is 65% Hard Oils...for my 10" mold...I do three 1-sec bursts, add my scent and color, give it a stir, two more 1-sec bursts and I'm done.

 

[Megan]

Just popping in to ask what material you printed your molds with...I just want to make sure it's not PLA fiber.

 

[kdm]

Just popping in to ask what material you printed your molds with...I just want to make sure it's not PLA fiber.

Good question. No; not PLA. I used TPU. I'm just testing it with the fats an Hydroxide now before I start to mix!! Any experience?

 

[Megan]

Good question. No; not PLA. I used TPU. I'm just testing it with the fats an Hydroxide now before I start to mix!! Any experience?

No experience , I just knew that PLA + caustic/heat is a big no-no. Looking at a chemical compatibility chart, it seems like TPU might be slightly resistant but definitely test. The mold itself might not last super long.

 

[kdm]

I just knew that PLA + caustic/heat is a big no-no. Looking at a chemical compatibility chart, it seems like TPU might be slightly resistant but definitely test.

PLA's only good for maybe 40 degrees before it softens. I dread to think what NaOH solution does to that kind of organic. Sure, TPU is also "organic" but let's see what happens...!