Why is coconut considered a hard oil?

[Obsidian]

This is something that always has confused me.
I consider a hard oil one that has a bit higher melting point and adds longevity to a bar, neither which applies to coconut.
So why is it considered a hard oil? Is it just because its usually solid at room temp?

After seeing so many newbies trying to use it at high amounts when formulating a recipe after being told they need more hard oils, shouldn't we be calling it a soft oil?

 

[Baqn]

Hallo Obsidian,

Coconut is definitely not an ordinary oil. Most people making DIY soaps are not professionals. They might become professional soapers but not chemists or chemistry related professionals. For ease of them CO is classified as hard oil. Also according to the standard measurements, standard temperature is 20 degrees Celsius. At this temperature CO is definitely hard.

For me there is different nomenclature of oils:
1. Oils rich in MCT oils - this are oils with high content of myristic, lauric and capric acid. For example Coconut oil, Babassu oil, Palm kernel. They are strong soaps.

2. Castor oil - one in its group. Rich in Ricinoleic acid.

3. Oils rich in LCT, BUTTERS- most of the hard oils and butters. They are rich in Palmitic and Stearic acid oil - Cocoa butter, Mango butter, Shea butter.

4. Oils rich in unsaturated oils - this oils are rich in Oleic, Linoleic and Linolenic acid. They are liquid at room temperature (20 degrees). Olive, Almond, Sunflower, Safflower, Canola.

5. LARDS - the are in the middle between group 3 and 4. They have almost 50/50 sat/unsat oils. Pay attention when using them since they will add unsaturated oils than hard oils. Palm oil, Tallow, Lard. At room temperature they are soft - not hard, but not liquids

6. Waxes - saponifiable and unsaponifiable lipids. Jojoba, Beeswax, Carnauba, Woolwax (Lanolin).

 

[DeeAnna]

I don't normally use the word "hard" when talking about soaping fats, because it seems to be an imprecise term that is not very helpful. Kind of like "water discount" -- discount the water from where?

But from what I understand, the fats high in stearic and palmitic acid, such as lard, tallow, palm, and the butters, are the hard fats. Fats such as coconut, palm kernel, and babassu are the brittle fats high in lauric and myristic acid. I don't think this is a black and white thing, however. Tallow falls in the gray area between the two, IMO.

If you've ever played around with cutting cool lard (especially commercially hydrogenated lard) and cool coconut oil with a knife, you'll see the difference -- the lard is firm but yielding and cuts more like fudge. Coconut is hard and brittle -- it tends to shatter as the knife blade passes through it.

 

[dixiedragon]

I put coconut and palm kernel in a separate category from other oils. That being said, sometimes I call it a hard oil because it speeds trace and makes a hard bar of soap. However, it does not make a long-lasting bar of soap.

Context matters. For example, "My recipe is 60% palm, 20% coconut and 20% olive. My recipe seized and I can't do swirls!"

Me: "That's 80% hard oils in that recipe. Try dropping your palm to 50% or 40% and replace that with a soft oil such as olive, sunflower or rice bran."

However, when I give new soapers general advice in building a recipe, I don't lump coconut in the the hard oils.

I recommend:
5% castor (notice castor is also it's own category)
10-20% coconut (or palm kernel but NOT palm)
40-50% palm, lard or tallow (these are what I consider true hard oils)
Remainder in olive, rice bran or sunflower.

 

[Michele50]

From what I've read, there are three classifications: soft, hard, and brittle. Soft are those that are liquid at room temps; hard are those that are solid, but scoopable at room temps (mango butter, Shae butter, palm oil, coconut oil, etc); and those that are brittle are hard at room temp but also brittle, requiring some muscle to get the amount needed to be removed (Illipe butter, and cocoa butter). I have to take a knife and chip away at my Illipe butter, same with the cocoa butter.

Also, both the hard and brittle oils/butters will help create a harder bar when combined with soft oils. If only soft oils are used to make soap, soap will be softer vs those that have a combination. The exception is Olive oil, a soft oil but one that, even at 100%, will yield a hard bar. It takes a long time to cure though, shorter if made with much less water. It traces very slowly so it takes well to a large water reduction. I can't remember what my water to lye ratio was because it was years ago when I made my bastille soap; it was 80 Olive, 15% C.O. and 5% castor.

Fatty acids that contribute to a hard bar of soap are as follows: Lauric, Myristic; Palmitic; and Stearic. Coconut oil has a 79% combination of these:

Palm Oil has a combination of 50%:

Take a look at the combined 4 fatty acids in Babassu oil (85%):


A hard bar doesn't necessarily equal longevity; out of the 4 fatty acids that help create a hard bar of soap, two are responsible for durability--stearic and palmitic. Lauric and Myristic are responsible for the cleansing quality in soap. Coconut oil has about 48% Lauric acid and that's why it can be drying if used in high percentages. It has only a 12% combination of Stearic/Palmitic. Lard, on the other hand, is high in fatty acids that make for a long-lasting bar; 41% combined Stearic/Palmitic.....but only 1% Myristic/0 Lauric, so it's not drying like Coconut Oil.....and that's why I like using it even though (sorry vegans) it's animal fat. If no one found uses for the fats from animals that are killed for human consumption then there'd be much waste; I see using it as being environmentally responsible--waste not/want not. If an animal is going to be used for food, others might as well use all of the animal. That's just me though. Oh, and Lard has 46% Oleic acid which is good gives soap moisturizing/conditioning qualities; Argan has the same % of Oleic as Lard. It, however, has only 6% of Linoleic while Argan has 34% and this fatty acid also holds moisturizing/conditioning properties.

Getting back on track, the length of fatty chains has something to do with soap's durability. Stearate is composed of (I think) 17 carbons chains. Lauric has 12 carbon chains so, while it will add to hardness, it won't be as longlasting in soap as Stearic acid will be. Palmitic, like Stearic, is a long fatty chain, having a 16-carbon backbone. I wish I knew as much as many here in this forum (I'm learning and read A LOT) but I hope the sites below can help you in your journey of soap making. Many are so helpful to list sites that are so helpful so maybe some will add to this list for ya.

Oh, I will add that I got my %s from SoapCalc (my primary soap calculator): http://soapcalc.net/calc/soapcalcwp.asp. I think it is probably off a tiny bit from those who actually know first hand the fatty acid percentages of various oils.

Sites you might be interested in:
*https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/
*https://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/
*http://www.soap-making-resource.com/fatty-acids-soap-making.html
*https://vula.uct.ac.za/access/content/group/9eafe770-4c41-4742-a414- 0df36366abe6/Chem%20Ind%20Resource%20Pack/html/learner-sheets/C/LS_C7.pdf

 

[amd]

I define hard / liquid oils by how I get them out of a container. If I can pour it, it's a liquid oil. If I have to scoop it, break it or smash it out, it's a hard oil. So... in the summer my CO is usually a liquid oil, but I still lump it in with hard oils as summers are far too short.

I also look at if it's considered a saturated or unsaturated fat. CO is saturated - along with tallow, lard, and PKO. Saturated fats have no double bonds in their chemical structure (saturated with hydrogen atoms). This chemical structure is what gives them a solid consistency at room temp.

 

[Lin19687]

Ditto what @amd said.

I think you see so many newbees asking is because they are soaping before they know how it all works, asking too many questions without reading about how oils work in a recipe.
Many are too eager to start or are trying to make a quick buck in soap making I have found..... both make for a not so fun experience in soaping.

 

[Baqn]

dixiedragon, I agree with you that 60% Palm oils is too much for beginner.

Accidentally we moved to another topics - slow & fast moving oils and hardness of the finished soap. You have to know the composition of the oils, not only the physical state to figure out their soaping properties.

amd, I was thinking that TALLOW and LARD are more saturated but I realized that they are almost 50/50 sat/unsat. They are not like PKO or CO. Last night I did a soap with LARD. I wanted to use 40% of it. When I saw the chemical composition I said "WOW" so much Oleic acid. Where is it from? Well ... it came from the LARD , so I had to drop the Sunflower oil in order to keep the LARD. I am working as well with lard and it gets rancid very quickly at room temp.

 

[Obsidian]

@DeeAnna Ah yes, brittle oils. I have seen that term used but not often. I like this classification, I'll have to remember and use it more. Thanks

Me: "That's 80% hard oils in that recipe. Try dropping your palm to 50% or 40% and replace that with a soft oil such as olive, sunflower or rice bran."

Now, this is the kind of post that would confuse me and possibly mess others up, especially a newbie. I often see newbies being told their recipe needs more hard oil and if they do a search, they might very well find your post with palm/coconut being lumped as hard oils. If they don't have palm but do coconut, what would keep them from using 50% or more coconut thinking they are using a proper amount of hard.

Just as a after though. I'm I the only one who doesn't have coconut trace fast? My 100% coconut bars trace slow, even when making salt bars.

 

[shunt2011]

@DeeAnna Ah yes, brittle oils. I have seen that term used but not often. I like this classification, I'll have to remember and use it more. Thanks



Now, this is the kind of post that would confuse me and possibly mess others up, especially a newbie. I often see newbies being told their recipe needs more hard oil and if they do a search, they might very well find your post with palm/coconut being lumped as hard oils. If they don't have palm but do coconut, what would keep them from using 50% or more coconut thinking they are using a proper amount of hard.

Just as a after though. I'm I the only one who doesn't have coconut trace fast? My 100% coconut bars trace slow, even when making salt bars.

I'm with you on the high CO. My salt soaps have plenty of time to play if I want to. Only time it give me trouble is if I try a new FO I'm not familiar with. And yes, I've done it and had a seize. I like to live dangerously sometimes.....

 

[amd]

@Baqn maybe our resident chemist will chime in on this because I don't know how you can argue with chemical structure.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@Baqn maybe our resident chemist will chime in on this because I don't know how you can argue with chemical structure.

She weighed in. It’s post #3.

 

[Baqn]

@Baqn maybe our resident chemist will chime in on this because I don't know how you can argue with chemical structure.

I don't want to argue with chemical structure It is pointless. Chemistry wins every time I try it. I read in the soap calc and google. You can take a look in Michele50's post earlier. Below Ricinoleic are UNSAT above Ricinoleic they are SAT. Lard is 42/52 sat/unsat, Beef tallow is 50/48, Palm oil is 49/46. They are soft butters but definitely not hard at room temp.

 

[amd]

I don't want to argue with chemical structure It is pointless. Chemistry wins every time I try it. I read in the soap calc and google. You can take a look in Michele50's post earlier. Below Ricinoleic are UNSAT above Ricinoleic they are SAT. Lard is 42/52 sat/unsat, Beef tallow is 50/48, Palm oil is 49/46. They are soft butters but definitely not hard at room temp.

I'm not following your logic. I don't understand what you mean by "below Ricinoleic are UNSAT above Ricinoleic they are SAT".
Looking at Coconut Oil:

Unless I am misunderstanding chemistry, a single oil can't be a combination of sat/unsat. Fats can mainly be divided into two types, saturated and unsaturated fats. Saturated fat is the type of fat in which fatty acids form single bonds, whereas unsaturated fat is the type of fat in which there is one or more double bond in the fatty acid food chain. (source)
Lauric, myristic, stearic, etc. are the fatty acids. How they bond is what determines sat/unsat.

I'm trying to see in soap calc where you get your lard sat/unsat numbers from, but can't find it. When I plug in Lard:

True, they are not "hard" but they are solids and not liquids.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I don't understand what you mean by "below Ricinoleic are UNSAT above Ricinoleic they are SAT"...."

@amd -- In your soapcalc images, see the fatty acid list? Lauric, myristic, palmitic and stearic are listed first, above ricinoleic. Oleic, linoleic, and linolenic are listed last, below ricinoleic. I think this is what Baqn is talking about, but I'll admit I had to scratch my head a bit before figuring it out myself.

And Baqn wrote: "...Lard is 42/52 sat/unsat..."

Using the FA profile for lard in your previous post, Amd --

Add up the saturated fatty acids (lauric -> stearic). 1 + 28 + 13 = 42 % sat'd FAs
Add up the unsat FAs (ricinoleic -> linolenic). 46 + 6 = 52% unsaturated FAs

I hope I'm making sense.

 

[amd]

@DeeAnna - so one oil can be both sat/unsat? I'm confused. I thought they could only be one or the other.

Sorry... not to hijack the thread. Sat/unsat is how I was deciding hard/soft oil... so finding out that it's not as straightforward is rocking my world a little bit... ha!

 

[Mistrael]

I trained to be a chef before chronic illness kicked my butt... It's interesting to see the different fats discussed as applies to soap rather than food!

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, you are right -- any given fat molecule can contain any of the unsaturated FAs and saturated FAs that are found in that fat.

Each fat molecule has three fatty acids attached to a backbone of glycerin. If a particular fat, for example, contains stearic (S), oleic (O), and palmitic (P) acids, each of the molecules found in that fat could have any combination of those three FAs. Some of the combinations for this hypothetical fat --

S - S - S
P - P - P
S - P - O
S - S - O
O - O - P
P - S - P
O - O - O
and so on.

If a fat has more than three FAs, and most do, you would see an even larger variation in the fat molecules.

For a high stearic and palmitic fat like lard or tallow, there will be more of these FAs found within the fat molecules and less of the other FAs, but you can't predict the exact FAs that any given fat molecule will contain. It's more likely you'll see something like P-S-S or S-P-S or P-P-P, etc., but you'll also find O-O-P and O-O-O. (Boy, these FA combinations are hard to type!)

When you strip off the FAs from the glycerin backbone, many flavors of soap will be created using those FAs. Stearic soap, palmitic soap, oleic soap, etc. and etc. The amounts of each type of soap will depend on the percentages of these FAs within the fat(s) you used to make the soap.

 

[Baqn]

DeeAnna is so fast She said almost everything I wanted to say. The rest I wanted to say is theory and I don't think it will be interesting.

 

[dixiedragon]

I'm with you on the high CO. My salt soaps have plenty of time to play if I want to. Only time it give me trouble is if I try a new FO I'm not familiar with. And yes, I've done it and had a seize. I like to live dangerously sometimes.....

I soap my salt bars at 80-90 degrees so I have plenty of time. I haven't really tinkered with, say, 10% vs 20% coconut in my standard recipe, which I soap warmer (90-100). It would be really interesting to see people test notorious problem fragrances in different recipes - say 100% lard, 100% palm, then maybe a more standard palm/coconut/olive and lard/coconut/olive.