Why did this seize?

[David James]

It is so tempting to use more than 10% of Castor Oil in recipes.

I really wish it would work. I think it is the ONLY common oil that is high conditioning + high bubbly + high creamy

All of the calculators make it look like it's gonna work out fine, but it never does.

Seizing, slimy, weird smelling, rivers and separations -- whatever problem seems to only happen when I go over 10%.

So I gave up and never use more than 10% of it, and have a mantra:

"Too much Castor equals Disaster."

 

[PieBorg]

@KiwiMoose Like beauty, ugly is in the eye of the beer holder lol! And while I'm at it, there's no accounting for taste, right? That's why an artist can duct tape a banana to a wall in a gallery and someone will come along and pay eight figures for it. FWIW, I like your Salty Sailor soap.

"Too much Castor equals Disaster."

I'm adding that to my database next to the castor oil entry.

 

[amicia007_8Pc]

In CP, you don't have to add the salt. My recipe is usually something like 40% Olive oil 30% Palm oil 20% coconut oil 5% castor oil and 5% sweet almond. I'll add 1tsp PP of oil of sodium lactate to the lye solution after its cooled a little. I soap at around 120° In CP, temp is important! When working with Palm oil, I always soap hot and force gel! So when the oils and lye are within 10 degrees of each other, around 120°, I add give lye solution to the oils and stick blend/hand stir until emulsion! Stop at emulsion! If you get to trace, you've gone too long, especially if you're wanting to do multiple colors or a design. Then I split my soap up, add the colors and mix until either light trace or just short of, depending on what I'm doing with it. I hope this helps! Don't give up on CP, it's awesome, it's just different in areas from HP!

 

[Wyndham Dennison]

I'm a newbie here as well as soapmaking. My thought might be far out of bounds but I'm wondering about the "H"sea salt. You have sodium chloride plus sodium hydroxide and you said it started to seize when you put in the salt brine. Make a test batch without the salt. Also there is no info on what might be in the salt and it might have either an additive or a contamination from some dissolved mineral, metal or creature that could trip the trigger. Consider they mine the "Dead Sea" for minerals and I know from personal experience that lithium is mined from ancient salt water in Nevada.

 

[PieBorg]

@Amicia007 I believe you about the temperature being important. The new thermometer is on its way! Also, it definitely looks like I need to stop blending as soon as I have an emulsion.

You're so right that CP is very different from HP. You can get away with a lot when you're doing HP. Not so with CP lol! But there are pros and cons to each. I'll keep trying CP for a while so I can make an informed decision before deciding I do or don't like it. I appreciate the encouragement.

@Wyndham Dennison Everyone says that salt has a tendency to accelerate, and it appears to be true, from what I've seen so far. I've been using Himalayan pink salt, not Dead Sea salt, because I saw somewhere that Dead Sea salt really, really doesn't play nice in soap making. You're right, though, there's no telling what minerals or contaminants could be in it. I really want to use it, but I'm gonna wait until my citrus EOs get here. @KiwiMoose says they help to slow trace. Without something like that to counteract the acceleration, I don't think I can use salt at all.

 

[Susie]

1. Citrus EOs don't stick in CP. Just won't. I've tried everything.
2. Try mixing your lye solution the day before you intend to soap. That way it is room temperature by the time you make soap.
3. Don't obsess about temperatures. Feeling them with your hand is fine. Just make sure they aren't too warm when you go to make soap. Remember that there will be an increase of temperature when you mix them. It is from saponification starting. Don't freak out.
4. There is no need to add salt to most CP. Avoid adding complicating factors until you have 20 or 30 batches that come out as intended before you try more. Get your basics down first. Milks and creams are complicating factors. Work on a basic recipe. When you are happy with it, then expand your repetoire from there.
5. You can get away with a lot in CP. What you can and can't get away with just differs.

 

[PieBorg]

@Susie I understand that citrus EOs don't stick, but what they do is slow trace, which makes them a valuable addition, IMHO, if there's any chance of unwanted acceleration.

It's good to hear I don't have to obsess about temperatures. I have been letting my lye water cool until it's no longer warm to the touch. Same with the oils. I don't yet have a thermometer, so I've had to just estimate by touch.

If we're talking strictly about what is needed in soap, there are a lot of things we could leave out -- fragrance, colorants, etc. I hate to admit it, but I know you're right when you say to get a basic recipe down before adding anything complicated. That's the hardest thing for me to do, even though I know I should. I really want the salt in there, and I'm having to fight with myself about leaving it out. I may have to accept defeat when it comes to salt, though, since I've had really no success at all with it, and I'm piling up soap that will have to be rebatched. So yes, time to perfect a simple recipe before getting too creative with it.

 

[Obsidian]

@PieBorg why are you using salt in the first place? If its just to help harden the soap, try cutting it down to 1 tsp ppo.

If you have another seize, take your tools out of the batter and wrap the bowl in a towel. Check it ever 5 minutes or so, it should go into gel fairly quick.
Give it a quick stir and get it molded up while still hot.

I use aloe with ca in it and never have experienced seizing or even accelaration. I really don't think thats your issue.

You might also try hand stirring in your lye solution if you have a finicky recipe.

 

[PieBorg]

@Obsidian Yes, it's just to harden the bar. I understand that hardness doesn't equate to long lasting, but I think salt is supposed to help with both. Of course, I could be wrong about that. Cutting it down to 1 tsp/ppo sounds like a great compromise. If I can have the salt without causing seizures, that would be great, even if it's only a little! It's getting tiresome having one messed up batch after the other, and I know there are other ways to help harden a bar, so if severely reducing the salt doesn't help, I'll turn to a different method.

Thanks so much for the tip about wrapping it up and checking till it gels! No doubt, I'll be glad you told me that at some point. I just hope it's a while before I need to know that lol! I've had enough of seizing for now.

With the last batch, there was a high % of olive, so I was getting nowhere fast with hand stirring. It did allow me to SB a little, and everything looked lovely until I got about half of it into the mold. Then it started thickening up, and the top of the soap came out just awful. I put plastic wrap over it and thought I had smoothed it out pretty well, but once it was out of the mold, it was obviously a train wreck with a line of air pockets between the pourable part and the thick part.

You could be right about the AVJ. After hearing what everyone had to say about it, I'm thinking there was just way too much salt. It would be great if I could also use the AVJ, but I'll wait until I do a test batch with just a teensy bit of salt and see how that works out.

 

[Obsidian]

Salt doesn't help with longevity, it only helps with physical hardness. You can also use sodium lactate to help hard the bars.

Increasing palmitic acid in your soap will help with longevity. That would mean a increase in palm, lard or butters. You could also use a touch of beeswax but its really finicky.

If you are open to try lard, I have a good recipe.

 

[KiwiMoose]

For hardness and longevity - Try an increase in Palmitic and stearic acids as @Obsidian pointed out. Forego the salt altogether. Add maybe cocoa butter, shea butter, soy wax if vego - or lard/tallow if not.

 

[Arimara]

To be frank, I think the salt was your issue, more specifically the type of salt you're using. Have you tried a regular, non-iodized salt or a sea salt in you lye?

 

[PieBorg]

@Obsidian Thank you so much for offering to share your recipe! I don't have any lard atm, but I do have "shortening", which is a blend of palm and soybean oils. Their SAP values are fairly close, but there's no way of knowing the ratio of palm to soybean. Palm is the first ingredient, and soybean is the second. I'm thinking about using it and splitting the difference in SAP values.

@KiwiMoose I knew that palmitic and stearic increase hardness, but they increase longevity too? Stearic is in castor oil, I think. I have plenty of that, but castor also accelerates, so I can only add a little. Just found out the other day that a grocery store not too far from me has tallow at a fantastic price. I've never used it, but I'd really like to give it a try.

@Arimara I think you're right. The only salt I've used is Himalayan pink. I don't have any uniodized or sea salt on hand, and that may be a good thing, because it would probably be smart to ditch the salt altogether for the time being. I'll definitely come back to it at some point, though, but I'll switch out and use sea salt.

 

[Arimara]

@PieBorg I thought it was worth mentioning that as somewhere in it's molecules of molecules, the pink salt is a little bit different than standard sea salt. I also have not had my soaps seize when using that sea salt in the lye, not even when using honey (when you get a little more confident, have to try honey and salt in your soap ).

 

[PieBorg]

Huh. That's good to know! I've tried honey and beeswax in my HP soap with no problems, but CP is such a different animal. Yeah, not trying either of those anytime soon lol!

I feel like such a masochist for ever thinking I needed to do CP! HP was working just fine, but I'm jealous of all the beautiful CP soaps and just had to try it. Now I'm feeling really stubborn about it and don't want to go back to HP until I have some success with CP. But along with masochistic and stubborn, I'm also a dummy for starting out with anything but a simple, unadorned soap. It just wasn't what I wanted to make, I guess.

 

[penelopejane]

This must be so frustrating for you as you are an experienced HP soaper.
Listen to cmzahas advice. It is not the CA or the aloe Vera juice - I use CA in every soap. Did you neutralise it by using the formula to add extra lye? Also Activated charcoal will accelerate soap very quickly!

I use castor oil at 5%. Temps are important when using palm and coconut.
I only ever use EVOO in my soap.

I suggest you reconsider the Himalayan salt. A lot of us have tried it and even if it is dissolved it recrystallises and becomes really scratchy in soap. Most of us use fine table salt. Do a search on the forum for further info.

just saw your post above while I typed. Beeswax in CP is fine but you need to soap at 110*F and melt your beeswax then add a bit of warm oil and then a bit more warmed oil. Keep the beeswax at temp don’t dump it in one go into the warmed oils.

shunt is right about the tea tree oil - no qualities will carry over but it is good for label appeal and some of the scent might stay for a while. Most EOs fade over time in CP soap, some really quickly.

 

[Arimara]

@PieBorg I started out with HP myself. I've always been one to dive into experiments because mistakes (within reason) are how I learn. In truth, the only main difference for me between an HP and CP batch is how long I leave it in my slow cooker.

Beeswax aside (I've never used it), if you have used honey before, I think you will do fine with it in CP, when you're ready. Just let the honey lye cool down to room or nigh-room temperature before you add it to your oils. That will help tremendously. The others have more experience with beeswax and have given you great advice.

 

[Susie]

I understand you want "hardness", but have you tried a soap without salt to see if you really have a soft recipe or not? I routinely do not use salt. It just isn't needed for my recipes. Try the recipe without the salt first. You may be surprised.

 

[PieBorg]

@penelopejane You are so right, it is frustrating, and disappointing too. Since the CA was already in the AVJ, and the label only said the AVJ was "99.8% pure", I didn't add extra lye. I didn't know the AC would accelerate! The first batch seized hard before the AC was added though, possibly because of too much salt. I am definitely reconsidering the salt! I've also reduced the castor oil to 5% for my next batch. Thanks for your directions on using beeswax. I've used it before in HP but didn't know anything about adding it to CP.

@Susie That seems to be the consensus here. As much as I love the idea, I think I'm done with salt for now.

@PieBorg I've always been one to dive into experiments because mistakes (within reason) are how I learn.

Me too, but I kinda ran right past that "within reason" part and kept going to "let's see how bad I can screw this up" lol! I have learned a ton of good info in a short period of time, but mostly what I'm learning is how much I still don't know.

Today is a long work day, so no soaping till tomorrow. I'll firm up my plans tonight, cross my fingers, and hope I've learned enough to make a decent batch.

 

[cmzaha]

@penelopejane You are so right, it is frustrating, and disappointing too. Since the CA was already in the AVJ, and the label only said the AVJ was "99.8% pure", I didn't add extra lye. I didn't know the AC would accelerate! The first batch seized hard before the AC was added though, possibly because of too much salt. I am definitely reconsidering the salt! I've also reduced the castor oil to 5% for my next batch. Thanks for your directions on using beeswax. I've used it before in HP but didn't know anything about adding it to CP.

@Susie That seems to be the consensus here. As much as I love the idea, I think I'm done with salt for now.



Me too, but I kinda ran right past that "within reason" part and kept going to "let's see how bad I can screw this up" lol! I have learned a ton of good info in a short period of time, but mostly what I'm learning is how much I still don't know.

Today is a long work day, so no soaping till tomorrow. I'll firm up my plans tonight, cross my fingers, and hope I've learned enough to make a decent batch.

I think you need to step back and make a simple no extra additive cp soap with a good balance of oils. I can tell you from experience that temps will make a huge difference in tracing. I use 40% palm in my vegan recipe and soap cool, 90-100º oil with 70-80º F lye solution. My batter will thicken almost immediately, stick blending just a few seconds, but will start to thin as soon as the lye starts reacting and warms up. I wait until this happens, separate, color add fo and pour. Admittedly using this high of palm I have to work fairly quickly but on its own, with no additives, it is a hard long-lasting bar with a creamy lather. Where I am going with this is if I use warmer oils, only a couple degrees warmer this recipe can seize up almost immediately, so temp can play a big part in seizing. I hate OO in soap but it will slow trace, as will lard. My tallow/lard recipe I soap while the oils are a tad cloudy stick blending a few seconds and wait for the color to change and for it to start to warm, it will also thicken when I first pour in the cool lye. This recipe will actually become really thin and take quite a while to trace once it warms up so if I want it to trace a little faster I will soap it warmer. (around 100ºF to start). So again temp makes a big difference. Recently I actually took the time to test this.

I will also stick to my convictions that Aloe juice will not accelerate trace, which I have used for years, both store purchase AVJ and fresh Aloe Gel. I make up a gallon of masterbatch using AVJ. Well, not now since I refuse to go to Walmart, these days, and try to find some. I also soaped with CA for a few yrs before changing to EDTA and Sodium Gluconate and it absolutely never caused seizures even when used with Aloe juice. So I am really not finding why some think it does, but maybe...soap just tends to do what it wants to do at times.

If you want to be able to un-mold your bars sooner, cut the water use and just dissolve a tsp ppo of salt in your liquid before adding in your lye. Salt, nor vinegar will not make your bars last longer only the fatty acid profile of your soap will accomplish that. So why fight it. This is why small batches and testing are good, so you can find the balance you are happy with. If salt helped soap to last longer my salt bars would last forever since I use 100-110% salt in my salt bars. But CO and PKO are highly soluble so using 80% CO or PKO they do not last long.

I would also save my money when it comes to adding in Orange EO in every batch for slowing trace and tweak my recipe since I really never found adding Citrus EO to help slow trace.

Good Luck to you