which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tallow?

[Bicycle808]

The post's title says it all: which is a bigger turn-off for customers?

I like the characteristics that palm oil lends to my soaps, and I know that veg/vegan ppl will absolutely balk at the thought of tallow in their soap. Even resolute carnivores often express an aversion to smearing saponified cow fat all over their bodies. (Doesn't bother me one bit.)

But, some folks have complained about the palm in my soap. Mentioning that I am using RSPO-certified "sustainable" palm oil has been met with some scoffs of disbelief; google searches will yield a lot of skepticism re: the RSPO and "sustainable" palm. The environmental impact of the palm industry does concern me, but someone on this forum linked to a very compelling argument that a palm boycott among a relatively small number of soapers/soap enthusiasts won't have as much impact as concerted support for sustainable measures. I buy into that logic, for the most part, but...

Which has more label appeal? (Or, which has fewer properties of label sabotage?)

-rob

PS- I have made palm-free recipes many times, but I do think that soaps benefit from palm's qualities. I've yet to try tallow, but soapcalc and internet gossip suggest that it imparts similar characteristics in soap. I'm willing to try it, but I don't wanna turn ppl off.

 

[lsg]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

It depends on the philosphy of the customer. I do not like tallow but love palm oil.

 

[charlotteda]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I've only had a few customers complain about palm oil.

 

[Seifenblasen]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

First, clarification: I don't sell soap. I make soap for personal use and sometimes barter with friends.

When I first got started, I used palm oil (from "sustainable" sources) because I was just following recipes. I have also played with tallow and in general I like palm better. These days most of the soaps I make are palm-free because it is easier to verify the source of tallow than palm. More often than not I get tallow from the local ranchers who raise their animals in a humane manner but I really don't know for sure which part of Malaysia/Indonesia/Ghana my palm oil comes from, if forests were cut down, if the workers are treated right, etc.

While I dislike killing cattle, personally I feel that tallow is the lesser of the two (sometimes necessary) evils. Cattle is not exactly endangered, but the destruction of rain forest for palm plantations eliminates habitats for many endangered species. I am also afraid to find out the carbon foot print of shipping palm oil from Asia or Africa to the US.

but someone on this forum linked to a very compelling argument that a palm boycott among a relatively small number of soapers/soap enthusiasts won't have as much impact as concerted support for sustainable measures. I buy into that logic, for the most part, but...

I think the argument could go both ways. If we keep thinking our action won't make any difference, it won't. If we believe in every single act can make a difference, we could make a difference. Perhaps eliminating palm oil from our soaps won't have a large impact, but what about eliminating palm oil from our food? (It is not that healthy for you anyway). Just look at what these two 16-years olds are doing:

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/media_alerts ... -1367.html

 

[ClaraSuds]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

You won't please everyone no matter what you do.

Are all these palm oil objectionists palm-free in their kitchen? Do they never buy a packaged potato chip or a myriad of other foodstuffs that have utilised palm oil?
Are all the tallow scoffers vegetarians? And have they read the ingredients list of every known body, food and cosmetic product to ensure they are never smearing cow fat on their skin?

My answer to both is I doubt it. And that's how silly this argument becomes. To be highly biased of an ingredient in soap yet have no objection to the same ingredient in other items you use is ridiculous.

People are a strange thing, they have biases about stuff mostly because those biases have been highly publicised in media. If all the negatives about just about any and every product on the planet were publicised we'd have nothing to buy and nowhere to go. Make the choice based on what you personally like in your soaps as far as formulation goes. I'd say make a batch of your recipe with both, cure them and decide which is the superior soap and which you are happy marketing as a personal product of you. You'll never sell your soap to everyone anyway so go with what you feel comfortable and confident with. Allow the scoffers to find another soap-maker.

A good book to read is The Happiness Centered Business, it's about a dentist but the rule still applies. When you aim to please the majority you end up wasting your time appeasing people who won't spend much money with you but consume a great deal of your energy. You don't want or need customers like that. Go for the customers who absolutely approve of and appreciate your work. They will back up their approval with their wallet and you will be much happier for the experience.

 

[Lindy]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I think it really depends on where you live and where you are selling to. I don't use Palm Oil but I do use Tallow. I love tallow and I am one of those that believe in using the whole animal which gives us a smaller ecological footprint. That tallow has to go somewhere and I would prefer to turn it into soap than have it literally rotting in a landfill.

Having said that I of course make vegetarian friendly soaps and it is customer's choice as to what they are going to buy. Most people don't ask about Palm Oil, it would appear that they are really not that well educated on that issue. :roll:

 

[Lilahblossom]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

Even resolute carnivores often express an aversion to smearing saponified cow fat all over their bodies. (Doesn't bother me one bit.) Seriously?

I don't feel that fellow soapers need to slam each other in a forum just because of the ingredients that they use. As far as I'm concerned all it is is a sorry attempt to make yourself look somehow better at someone elses expense.

 

[Maythorn]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

It's the soaper's call to use whichever and see what feedback follows. The public who has paid any attention to environmental issues is aware of what palm harvesting involves. I won't buy products with it anymore unless I can be sure it's eco-responsible/sustainable palm oil and I'm not seeing a lot of that around yet.

 

[Bicycle808]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

Thank you, everyone, for weighing in.

I agree that the argument(s) involved are at times silly, and often do not follow a whole lot of logic. I'm not so much worried about which is considered more ethical or why; I'm more trying to get a general sense of what is more (and less) appealing to customers, based on other soaper's observations. From my limited experiences with a small customer base, ppl seem to be giving a big thumbs down to animal-based fats, and most folks seem unaware/unconcerned about the palm issues. However, I have had a very small number of ppl expressing displeasure with the palm thing. In one case a guy completely dismissed the very notion of "sustainable" palm.

ClaraSuds hit the nail on the head when she called out those making objections for possible hypocrisy. Palm oil and derivatives thereof are in sooooooo many products; an actual boycott would be very difficult. Similarly, some folks who balk at tallow-based soap eat burgers regularly. I'm not so much trying to approach this from an moral or even logical standpoint; I just want to produce good soap with label appeal.

LilahBlossom:

I don't feel that fellow soapers need to slam each other in a forum just because of the ingredients that they use. As far as I'm concerned all it is is a sorry attempt to make yourself look somehow better at someone elses expense.

I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood me.

My comments on tallow weren't intended to be a "slam" on my fellow soapers; it's more of a paraphrased summary of the complaints I've heard when I mention the prospect of using tallow in my recipes. As I said above, I personally don't have a problem with using commercial tallow-based soaps. And, while I've yet to make soap with tallow, it does appeal to me in a thrifty/old-fashioned kind of way. I just don't want to make a pile of the stuff just to have ppl wrinkle their nose when/if they read the ingredients.

Maythorn, I recently bought a bucket of supposedly sustainable & organic palm oil. I'm hoping it really is sustainable (I'm not so worried about the organic certification) as it wasn't cheap; more than twice the price per pound than tallow.

-Rob

PS- honestly, I'm not trying to offend anyone by starting this discussion, and I'm rather surprised that I apparently did.

 

[Seifenblasen]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I don't feel that fellow soapers need to slam each other in a forum just because of the ingredients that they use. As far as I'm concerned all it is is a sorry attempt to make yourself look somehow better at someone elses expense.

I don't sense that anyone is trying to slam others here. Everyone is just stating his/her personal preference and the reasons behind it.

 

[ClaraSuds]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I'll weigh in now on why I use tallow, because I do....

I think it's a wonderful soaping material. It creates a very interesting lather, the likes of which no commercial soap has, not even the tallow ones. My tallow soaps feel less soapy and more creamy than my vege batch did. Palm Oils got nothing on tallow.
It's an easily obtainable material for me.
I eat meat, I see no reason not to use it.
I've discovered through personal experience and years of formulating other skin care products that often the old fashioned recipes really are better than our modern ones. Modern society has automated, scented and reformulated nearly everything we use, but in many cases these modern changes have not improved the product. Very frequently it's made it inferior, it's just more convenient with nicer packaging.
I get enormous joy out of rediscovering these old fashioned recipes and formulations and I can find out for myself whether or not something really does work.

A lot of the anti-tallow thinking is the byproduct of cosmetic marketing in the past 50 years designed to move people away from the basic skin care they used to use and into the fancy, high priced formulations on offer today. The societal memory however is very short and it only takes a couple of decades before people forget where this came from. I'll be perfectly honest cow fat smeared on your skin has the same effect as smearing virgin coconut oil on your skin and it's a hell of a lot cheaper... :wink: It won't be long before someone re-brands tallow as the new skin miracle, packages it, sells it and makes a million.

 

[Maythorn]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

Rob, I know, much more expensive. Like trying to go organic with your groceries. Even non-organic is becoming a struggle for many families. To be honest, I should say I still have products with what is probably un-eco palm oil in them but I'm cautiously reading ingredients and not buying any more of them in the future.

I make lard soaps, would make tallow were I to get some of it and I love all animals. Sometimes a person just can't win..

 

[new12soap]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I really don't sell much yet, just a bit here and there, but I am happy to share my experience FWIW. I sell some, and I have a lot of friends and family members that have been testers for me. I have had a number of people that loved my lard based soaps and raved and raved about them, right up until they asked what was in them. These are not vegetarians or people who have a religious objection to pork products. They eat meat, including pork, but the word "lard" just completely turned them off, even tho they had loved the soap! I have offered them "tallow" soaps, and that is fine. Honestly, I have been surprised by the number of people that don't know what tallow is. Seriously. And the ones that do know don't care. And not one single person outside the soapmaking community has ever asked or expressed any concerns whatsoever about palm. Not one.

As for label appeal, I think vegetarians and vegans will of course object to animal products of any kind. Of those, perhaps a percentage will object to palm. I agree that you should make what you like and do what you think is best. And if you find it is really impacting your business, you can always formulate a palm-free all-veg soap! And you can always keep the wrapper from a commercial detergent like Dove in your pocket to show to the non-veg people that think animal fat in soap is gross... :twisted: (sorry, I have issues with Dove and the doctors that are still recommending it, but I digress...)

When I asked for beef fat at my local butcher, they asked what I wanted it for because they save it in big buckets. The big buckets get picked up every morning and purchased... by a cosmetics company. The primary use? Lipstick.

Just saying.

 

[honor435]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

ive never had anyone ask about palm, although people dont seem to like the animal fat issue, so I dont use it. I agree with the one lady, there is a ton of foods etc made with palm, it would be difficult to stay away from it.

 

[Bicycle808]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

Everyone, thank you so much for your input! This is exactly what I'm looking for: anecdotal info about small-scale soap operations, general philosophies from other soapers, etc. It's truly appreciated.

I'm thinking I made the right decision in going with palm; it'll keep the veg folks happy, and the couple of ppl who gave me a hard time about palm can go buy some ivory or something. :shock: j/k

I feel like I'm a relatively responsible soaper just b/c I disclose the exact ingredients; I've picked up plenty of craft soap in shops where the ingredients say "saponified vegetable oils" without any specifics as to which veggies.

I am intrigued by the tallow; I'll have to pick up a small amount for some experiments. My wife won't like it, though.

 

[Hazel]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I didn't see it as a slam, either. I thought Rob asked a legitimate question about what is a controversial issue for many people.

@ClaraSuds

Well written and thoughtful post!

 

[Lindy]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

It was a very fair question.

On a side note one of my latest break-out soaps (as in gaining popularity) is my egg, tallow & lanolin soap :shock: And I live in granola country.... Go figure...

 

[Bicycle808]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

Thank you, everyone, for understanding my intentions. I do appreciate it; this forum is such a nice resource....

It was a very fair question.

On a side note one of my latest break-out soaps (as in gaining popularity) is my egg, tallow & lanolin soap :shock: And I live in granola country.... Go figure...

Does it have a name? "Steak-n-eggs"? Sounds interesting; how do you incorporate the egg in the recipe?

 

[booboo]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I dont use either, I dont feel good about putting it on my skin or using it in my soap, I dont sell my soap as yet, I give it away to friends and family. Some have expressed negitive views about one or the other.
Like other have said its what feels right.
I havent been on this forum for a long time. Still have the slowest internet connection ever!! Its great to see its still going stronge

 

[Maythorn]

Re: which do soap customers hate more-- palm oil or beef tal

I now have to worry about palm kernel oil. Jeepers I hadn't thought of that. I watched a news segment on palm oil harvesting last week on NBC and after that I wouldn't think anybody who cares about orangatans and their little families and environment they live in would feel good smearing palm all over their body. Then you might see that ad for the Humane Society where the cow is shoved around at a butcher facility like a piece of concrete and that would hurt you. Does me but I'm stil not a vegetarian.

I was going to order some palm kernel flakes that I ran out of and now I feel like going all coconut instead.