When (and how) to add Sorbitol, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Lactate

[NativeSoap]

I'm still gathering info and researching before starting my first small batch... If I want to add Sorbitol (for lather 1-2% of oil weight), Sodium Citrate (chelator but also for lather (2% of oil weight??)), and Sodium Lactate (for hardness (will start at 1% of oil weight)), at what point in the soap making do I add these ingredients?

Do they need mixed in part of the un-lyed, batch water solution before just dumping them dry into the oil mix?
Or...Is it okay to add them directly to the lye solution?

Trying to understand and just want to do it correctly! What do you recommend. TIA!

 

[AliOop]

It is always recommended to dissolve additives in your liquid before adding the NaOH, because once added, the NaOH tends to prevent other additives from dissolving well. You can also separate out some of your liquid specifically for dissolving additives. Then you have the option to blend the additive solution into your oils, or mix it with the NaOH solution and pour that combined solution into the oils. Either way will work.

For sodium citrate, I recommend starting at 1% of oils, and see what you think. Keep in mind that you are adding another salt (sodium lactate), and the total amount of added salts can have unexpected effects on your soap.

So for instance, if you are making the ZNSC recipe - which also contains sodium bicarbonate and sea salt - if you add both SC and SL, now you would have four salts in your recipe, at something like 6% of oil weight. That's pushing it! Thus, I wouldn't add use SL with that particular recipe, especially since the other salts will have the same effect as SL to harden the loaf for quicker unmolding.

However, if you are using a different recipe that doesn't include lots of other salts, adding SL may be a more appropriate option. Some people also use it post-cook in HP or LS to assist with batter fluidity. Absent a known need for SL, consider making your first few batches without it. Then you can see whether it is something you actually need for your recipe. As a beginner soapmaker, the less ingredients in your first recipes, the better!

 

[DeeAnna]

Be careful about loading soap up with additives, especially salts (sodium lactate, sodium citrate, table salt, etc.) It's tempting to solve all of one's soapy woes (MORE lather! MORE hardness! FASTER curing!) by using yet another additive, but this idea has limitations.

In particular, various salts can interact with each other (and with soap, which is another salt). The result can be unexpected rubbery texture, unusual softness, salt layer on the surface, etc.

 

[NativeSoap]

Thank you for the advice. I'll dissolve additives in my liquid before adding NaOH.

I've got a couple of the 4 inch loaf test batch molds, so maybe I'll try the same recipe changing up a couple things...#1 using sorbitol and no sodium productl. #2 using sorbitol/Sodium Citrate (1%). And #3 using sorbitol/sodium lactate.

Also, planning on following this basic guide to steer my thought process for soap making.
https://lovinsoap.com/2011/06/cold-process-soap/

 

[NativeSoap]

Be careful about loading soap up with additives, especially salts (sodium lactate, sodium citrate, table salt, etc.) It's tempting to solve all of one's soapy woes (MORE lather! MORE hardness! FASTER curing!) by using yet another additive, but this idea has limitations.

In particular, various salts can interact with each other (and with soap, which is another salt). The result can be unexpected rubbery texture, unusual softness, salt layer on the surface, etc.

Thank you for the info. Makes sense! I read about rubbery product when using too much Sorbitol. Do you see anything wrong with using the 1% sorbitol?

And you're right about tempting to solve potential soapy woes!!! The more I read, the more "issues" I see from others and so then I naturally want to do something to AVOID the same thing! Thanks for letting me know that these things react with one another. I never was great at chemistry.

 

[cmzaha]

I have really never soaped with SL, many once and quit adding salt as a hardner years ago. I do soap with Sorbitol, EDTA and Sodium Gluconate as chelators at .5% each total batch weight. Also, I soap with 50% vinegar as my liquid requirement, compensationing with the required extra lye, in order to help with faster de-molding. For hardness I control that with my fatty acid profile.

 

[NativeSoap]

I have really never soaped with SL, many once and quit adding salt as a hardner years ago. I do soap with Sorbitol, EDTA and Sodium Gluconate as chelators at .5% each total batch weight. Also, I soap with 50% vinegar as my liquid requirement, compensationing with the required extra lye, in order to help with faster de-molding. For hardness I control that with my fatty acid profile.

Thanks @cmzaha. I guess the vinegar turns to yet another type of salt. I think I'll lay off of trying the SL for now and maybe try 50% vinegar in a 4" mold test batch in the coming days.

 

[dmcgee5034]

I’ve learned a lot here and have my soap process routine and ingredients down.
I use SL, Sorbitol and sodium citrate in my soaps, each at 1% of oil weight. I dissolve my sorbitol and SC in distilled water from my batch water, double the weight of the SC.
Example, 1000g oils= 10g SC, 10g Sorbitol both dissolved in 20g distilled water, then I add 10g SL to that. I make sure to mix well, and be sure it’s all dissolved before adding it. It makes for nice and effective (for me and my areas’ water) little container of my additives.

 

[DeeAnna]

...The more I read, the more "issues" I see from others and so then I naturally want to do something to AVOID the same thing!...

Problem with this approach is you're trying to solve a problem you don't even know you have. I hope as you learn more about soap making, you'll take a more nuanced approach to evaluating your recipes and methods and not automatically reach for an additive.

Many people ask here for help with a problem they're having with their soap. Surprisingly a fair number of these people are convinced they already know what the cause is and what the solution is, even thought they're also asking for help. Sometimes these people are correct, but quite often they're completely wrong. After asking more questions, the group pinpoints what the REAL problem is and then the group moves on to offering REAL solutions.

I don't use sugars including sorbitol so I can't answer your question about the amount of sorbitol to use.

edit: Sentence structure

 

[Savage Daughter]

Thank you for the advice. I'll dissolve additives in my liquid before adding NaOH.

I've got a couple of the 4 inch loaf test batch molds, so maybe I'll try the same recipe changing up a couple things...#1 using sorbitol and no sodium productl. #2 using sorbitol/Sodium Citrate (1%). And #3 using sorbitol/sodium lactate.

Also, planning on following this basic guide to steer my thought process for soap making.
https://lovinsoap.com/2011/06/cold-process-soap/

I have been following the advice of a chemist & adding my sodium lactate to my lye water AFTER the temperature has dropped below 120 degrees. I did, however, initially add my sodium lactate to my lye water BEFORE adding my lye. Personally, I have noticed no difference whatsoever. I still get a hard bar with very nice lather. Likewise with sugar and honey. I have added both to lye water and oil. No problems whatsoever. I am a big believer that there are very few hard & fast rules with soap making, as with most things in life. Find the way which works best for you.

I cannot remember why the chemist said below 120 degrees said this was important, unfortunately, but I have had zero issues with my soap using sodium lactate this way. I will have to look into this again & post what I find.

I would suggest trying it both ways - before and after it drops below 120 degrees - and finding out if there is any difference at all. Just use smaller batches.

 

[NativeSoap]

I have been following the advice of a chemist & adding my sodium lactate to my lye water AFTER the temperature has dropped below 120 degrees. I did, however, initialy add my sodium lactate to my lye water BEFORE adding my lye. Personally, I have noticed no difference whatsoever. I still get a hard bar with very nice lather. Likewise with sugar. I have added it to both lye water and oil. No problems whatsoever. I am a big believer that there are very few hard & fast rules with soap making, as with most things in life. Find the way which works best for you.

I cannot remember why the chemist said below 120 degrees said this was important, unfortunately, but I have had zero issues with my soap using sodium lactate this way. I will have to look into this again & post what I find.

I would suggest trying it both ways - before and after it drops below 120 degrees - and finding out if there is any difference at all. Just use smaller batches.

I have added to my notes. Thank you!

 

[Savage Daughter]

I have added to my notes. Thank you!

No worries Forgot to say, I use approximately 3 TSP / 1 TBSP to a 2 KG / 4.4 LB batch. No problems as of yet. I use the liquid type.

Good luck

Edited for clarification on type of sodium lactate I am using.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I have really never soaped with SL,

Neither have I.

I don't use sugars including sorbitol

I don't use them either.

Problem with this approach is you're trying to solve a problem you don't even know you have.

I agree wholeheartedly.

The more I read, the more "issues" I see from others and so then I naturally want to do something to AVOID the same thing!

Kinda makes you wonder how @cmzaha, @DeeAnna and I ever learned how to make perfectly good soap so many moons ago without all the info you're loading yourself up on. The information will still be available when, and if, you need it.

I hope as you learn more about soap making, you'll take a more nuanced approach to evaluating your recipes and methods and not automatically reach for an additive.

Well said.