What does SF mean in a recipe?

[misfities]

This is probably obvious, but I am new. I found some soaps that interest me and the lady lists her ingredients online. She abbreviates everything. I get that FO is fragrance oil and EO is essential oil. What is SF though? If she's using castor oil as part of the recipe, why not list it under ingredients with the other oils? I emailed her a while ago, but no response.

http://anitaslalaland.blogspot.com/2011/06/021-canola-sunflower-soap.html#comment-form

Ingredients:
15% Olive Oil、30% Canola Oil、20% Sunflower Seed Oil、20% Coconut Oil、15% Palm Oil

SF : Castor Oil、Wheat Germ Oil
FO : Jasmine
Additives: Menthol Crystal

 

[cmzaha]

Looks like she is superfatting with castor and Wheat Germ Oil. If making cold process soap it makes no difference what you superfat with because lye will take what it wants. Plus Castor is a weird oil, in my opinion to superfat with. It is thick and sticky and is really used to support lather in soap. With Hot Process you can add in super fat oils after the gel stage without the risk of the lye using up all the super fat oils.

 

[Dorymae]

SF means superfat. When making HP soap you can add oils after the cook. These oils will not react with lye to make soap (the reaction is done) and stay as oil in the soap. She separated them out so you would know which oils are still oils and not oil turned to soap.

 

[KristaY]

Sorry misfities, but I haven't heard that and couldn't find it on the "acronym and abbreviation" sticky. SF is super fat, but can't find FS. Is it a typo, maybe?

But, jeez. When I first read through your thread, I read the last line as Crystal Meth. You can tell where my work leads at times, huh? :crazy:

 

[Obsidian]

You mean SF? that means superfat, if you make HP, you can choose which oils you want for SF so some people list it separately. If you are making CP, all the oils go into the pot together.

Personally, I would never use castor for SF in HP, it needs to be saponified in order to help make big bubbly lather. Seeing that she doesn't list how much castor, I would lower the canola by 5% and replace it with castor. I wouldn't use the wheat germ.

Actually, I wouldn't make that recipe, its heavy on canola which could lead to DOS. I suggest keeping canola at 15% or less. I'm not crazy about sunflower oil either but plenty of other people are. If you can find it, high oleic sunflower is better to use.

You might check out some of the recipes here, just make sure to resize them as most are pretty large batches and being a new soaper, you should stick to 2 lb batches.
http://www.millersoap.com/

 

[not_ally]

You all are such great advisors. I have been thinking of making my first batch of HP, goodness knows what would happen without you. I did not know that (among the myriad things) about castor as a SF choice in HP. Misfities, we are lucky.

 

[misfities]

I get it now. Seems so obvious. Since I only do cold process, I don't know much about superfatting. So it means she adds castor and wheat germ as 5% of her oils as a safeguard to cover the lye amount?

 

[Dorymae]

I get it now. Seems so obvious. Since I only do cold process, I don't know much about superfatting. So it means she adds castor and wheat germ as 5% of her oils as a safeguard to cover the lye amount?

Not really, the soap is already cooked and zap free so it is used for the skin benefits more than for a safeguard.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You currently do superfat in cp. It is often also called a lye discount - you use 5% less lye than is required, so 5% of your oils remain as oils, not soap.

In cp, it will be pretty much a split of all your oils based on their ratios. So if you make a cp soap with 50% lard, 30% oo and 20% co, your 5% superfat will be made up of a similar ratio of those oils.

In hp, you can finish the saponification of a soap with 0% lye discount and then add in an oil or oils - none of it will saponify as the lye is already gone.

As for this one here, she only lists a recipe. Looking at the image I can't tell if it is hp or cp though.

 

[McSpin]

In cp, it will be pretty much a split of all your oils based on their ratios. So if you make a cp soap with 50% lard, 30% oo and 20% co, your 5% superfat will be made up of a similar ratio of those oils.

From things I've read, I was under the impression that different fats did not saponify at the same rate, so ratios would change with the slowest saponifying oils left at the end. So, you're saying the different fats saponify at the same rate, which would have to happen for the ratios to remain the same?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

From things I've read, I was under the impression that different fats did not saponify at the same rate, so ratios would change with the slowest saponifying oils left at the end. So, you're saying the different fats saponify at the same rate, which would have to happen for the ratios to remain the same?

Which is why I said "Pretty much" not "totally 100%" - different oils do indeed saponify at different rates, but with the oils and lye well mixed throughout will mean that, while it won't be 100% the same it won't be too far off.

 

[McSpin]

Some fats go to trace at a rate that seems much faster to me, than other fats. For instance, a lot of the solids oils seem to trace in less than a minute, while some of the liquid oils (like olive) seem to not trace for many minutes of stick blending. Isn't this a sign that some are saponifying much faster? And if so, doesn't it mean that they would be saponified completely before the ones slower to trace?

 

[Susie]

Trace is the beginning of saponification, not the end. Saponification takes 24-48 hours to complete. This means that the lye is going to continue to change all oils until it is used up. There is simply no possible way to tell the lye to leave this oil or that one alone until last.

 

[McSpin]

Trace is the beginning of saponification, not the end. Saponification takes 24-48 hours to complete. This means that the lye is going to continue to change all oils until it is used up. There is simply no possible way to tell the lye to leave this oil or that one alone until last.

Of course, you can't tell it anything. But if it is saponifying one faster, how will you stop it from completely saponifying that one first?

 

[Susie]

If you make a soap with 5% "superfat"(AKA lye discount), that lye is going to convert all but 5%(ish) of the oils into soap. Period. Kevin Dunn has done studies on whether you can choose certain oils to be a "superfat" in a soap or not. You can't.

You also can't judge on how fast an oil saponifies by the speed at which it comes to trace. You can make a more educated guess, but not know for sure.

 

[McSpin]

I probably just don't understand saponification and how it works. I tried to research this before bringing this up, but I can't find anything on the web that discussed the chemistry, explaining how the different fatty acids are saponified at approximately the same rate, with the explanation.

As an example, stearic acid increases saponifcation drastically. I thought that meant that the stearic acid is saponified first. You seem to be saying that it isn't and that they are all saponified at approximately the same rate. If so, how is the stearic acid increasing the rate, without being the specific fatty acid that is being acted upon?

 

[coffeetime]

DeeAnna actually explained the saponification chemistry on a different thread a couple of months ago, I think. Perhaps if she comes by, she can link to it.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Coffeetime, that was a great way of wording it. I'm on the app but I'll see if I can find it when I'm at a computer.

Mcspin, the lye can bond with certain oils more readily, but it's not hard-and-fast set in stone as if the lye binds with all of the stearic before it even starts to bind with the olive oil. DeeAnna's post was great, so I'll let that do the talking when it is found

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I typed "lye party site:soapmakingforum.com" in to Google and it was the top result

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=492578&postcount=12

"
Yes, the rate of saponification does vary with the type of fat, and yes the saturated fats tend to saponify easier than the unsaturated fats. But even if you knew the reaction rate for each fat precisely, you still would not be able to accurately predict the specific fats left over after saponification is done. The superfat composition will depend on the amount of each fat used, the method of saponification, the temperature of the soap batter, etc.

It's like the fats and lye are having a big party with more fats (girls) than lye (guys) in the house. The guys at the party (the lye molecules) prefer blondes (coconut oil), but there are lots of pretty brunettes and redheads on the dance floor to mix with. These darker haired girls (olive oil, for example) dilute the concentration of blonds. This means the lye guys will find it harder to pair up with a girl with the "right" hair color and easier to pair up with a girl of another hair color (olive oil reacting with lye rather than coconut oil reacting w lye).

Even though some of the lye guys are eventually going to pair up with the blonds they prefer, many will pair up with the brunettes and redheads instead. At the end of the party, the lye guys will have hooked up with a fair number of the darker haired gals by the end of the party. It is likely that at least some girls of each hair color will remain without a partner. Given that this interaction is all about chemistry and probability, it's difficult to predict how many blonds, brunettes, and redheads will be left over.

There's just no way one could create a simple table to answer this question. HP is absolutely the way you should go if you want rigid control of the superfat composition. "

 

[Susie]

Thank you, Craig. I remembered the thread, and hunted, but I forgot about the lye party. Any possibility we could get that one stickied? We seem to have had a bunch of folks to explain the superfat issue to lately, and it sure would be convenient to point to a sticky.