Water Discounting Advice?

[LegendsCreekFarm]

Hello everyone! We took all the wonderful advice from everybody here and ordered some major bulk supplies from Liberty Natural and are getting ready to make a ton of soap but need the bars to be ready faster, and harder.

We have tried the salt method to make a harder bar, but were told that if we discount the water (technically goats milk) to 25% instead of 38% then it will make the process faster. I was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this?

Our recipe is simple, Olive Oil 50%, Coconut Oil 35%, Shea Butter 15%, and goats milk.

 

[Ruthie]

I'm not in favor of rushing it. Granted soap will harden faster if you discount liquid (I never use more than 35%) but there is more to curing than just water loss. Soap changes over time, becomes more mild.

 

[shunt2011]

I'm with Ruthie.....Soap needs at least 4 weeks to cure. I cure most of mine 6 weeks to let it become a better bar. Trying to rush it is doing a disservice to whomever you plan on selling/giving it to. I just won't do it myself.

 

[chicklet]

I'm guessing I must have missed some posts somewhere . . . why the rush? "Sell no soap before its time" is my motto (okay, yeah, not quite the same ring to it as "sell no wine. . "). Soap gets a LOT better as it ages, especially a soap with 50% olive oil.

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

Our problem is supply and demand. People want the soap right now, and we need to find a way to get it to cure faster so we can meet the demand.

We have been using it at 2 weeks old and it feels wonderful and so far everybody we have given samples to think it's great also.

What qualities get better with waiting 6 weeks?

 

[bodhi]

Yay, a goat farm!

Now for the bad news. You cant speed up curing. You can speed up drying and hardening of the bars to some extent but not curing. If you are wanting to use a soap in a couple of weeks you should rethink your recipe. A 50% OO soap used in 4 weeks is a waste of the olive oil and discounting the milk might make a bar that your customers wont like as much -because it has less milk-which is probably a big marketing point for you.

What other recipes/milk amounts have you tried? I think i read that you have been making soap for a year? Have you compared your year old soaps to the ones you are using at 2 weeks to check the differences with aging, different recipes, how your scents hold up, rancidity, etc? Are you giving out samples of 2 week old soap? With most soap, the age of the soap is going to make a significant difference on the quality. If you are giving out older samples and planning on selling 2 week old soaps, your customers are probably not going to be happy.

 

[Yooper]

What qualities get better with waiting 6 weeks?

All of them.

A 50% olive oil soap needs MORE than 6 weeks, and 6 weeks would be the absolute bare minimum to use it.

Some soaps can be "ready" faster, but olive oil soaps go from a relatively soft soap to a soap that can pound nails with aging! Not just that, but the lather is richer, the soap is milder on the skin, the feel of it is smoother, and it's just all around better.

I made a "baby soap" in October. It's 90% olive oil, so it's more than you're using. I'm willing to start trying it now, as it's 8 months old. At two weeks old, the soap is probably safe to use if it doesn't zap. It's still way too early!

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

Great advice everybody! I may be willing to add more coconut oil and less olive oil to help it speed up a little bit. I guess it will all come down to testing and customer comments.

I absolutely do not want to sacrifice quality just to make a sale, and it will take some more trial and error.

Bodhi: We have not been able to compare the older one because everybody takes them and uses them, but I have a little left in the basement I will try out and see. I haven'd had much issue with losing scent yet but I am sure it will happen.

Can anyone suggest a good ratio for the coconut oil, olive, and shea?

Thanks!

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

What % do you want to SF? Coconut can be stripping to the skin and remove too much natural oil. Using more will not cure the soap faster. I know many people make 100% CO soap w/20% SF. But they still cure it until it's "done". Think about it this way, for a person who orders their steak well done and they get a rare steak will not be happy. 2 week old soap would be like the rare steak, acceptable to some, but not the way they really want it.

I don't sell my soap but if I did and ran out at a busy time I would take orders and let them know that I will have it ready in 6 weeks. I know they may not like that, but I would explain that I want them to only receive the highest quality soap and will provide them with their soap when it meets that quality standard.

 

[pamielynn]

Your current ratio already has a high amount of coconut oil - are you sure you want to add more? Also, discounting water (especially at the rate you are suggesting) is considered an advanced technique. I think you'd give yourself more headaches if you attempted it now.
As it was said before, there's more to curing than just evaporation. Your bars mellow and lather better with age.

 

[Donna]

Wow! So many would absolutely love to have your problem!
Congratulations.
As I see it, if you have a recipe that you and your customers love, don't change it.
You will only have to ask people to wait this one time. If you are continuously making soap every week, you will have a six week cured soap available each week after this one time. I would explain to your customers that your demand has exceeded your supply, and that you don't want to compromise the quality of your product. Take their names, and be sure to contact them as soon as the first batch has sufficiently cured. You might even throw in a freebie for their patience. In the long run, I think most people appreciate the fact that you really care about the quality or your product.

 

[yamalimama]

Hey there!

First of all, Congratulations onthe soap-demand! Your business must be doing really well and I am happy foryou! Do you sell online anywhere? I saw your website but didn’t see soap. J

I 100% agree with Ruthie…andshunt2011….and chicklet, and I understand the problem of demand.

I have been in business for three yearsand here is my two cents. J

If you are thinking about using 25%water in your recipe, it's not a bad idea....it's comes pretty close to mymethod. After years of pondering over the "right amount of liquid touse" I believe I have found my favorite method (handed to me from somebodyelse here on the SMF) which is: forevery ounce of lye use 2 ounces of water (Lye / water ratio of 1:2) Forexample, for my 20 lb batches I use 32 oz of lye and dissolve it into 64 oz water.For my 50 lb batches I use about 80 oz lye and 160 water. I have found my barshave increased in hardness within days in comparison to what I had before. Iwould not recommend using less than that ratio, but then again we are alwayslearning aren't we?!

As far as demand....hmmm.

I have a bit of a demand of soapfor my business (www.yamalinaturals.etsy.com),which has forced me to organize my production methods. However, the onlyarea I will not cut back on is the cure time (see below for explanation).Yes, it is really hard to do this and I tell my customers all the time, “I lovesoap making, but hate the cure time!”. Yes, I wish there was a faster and easierway to cure soap AND have the same outcome as a 6 week cure but I do not wantto sacrifice the quality of my product. Let me encourage you that people(especially our soap-customers) are concerned about QUALITY. I am sure mycustomers do not like the cure wait (especially when I showed them the day-oldbar of a new scent), but they do know that when it is ready, they will have ahard, lathery, longer lasting mild bar of soothing natural soap. It is worththe wait in gold! HeheJ. Also, the “6 week cure time” is a plus for your business.I display this fact proudly in all my soap brochures and throughout my onlineshop. It shows that you are concerned about the QUALITY of your product, whichmakes them appreciate you and your soaps all the more!

I allow 6+ weeks of cure time. Forme this has benefited:

~harder bars = longerlasting
The more it cures the more water isallowed to evaporate out of the bar…bars become much harder and melt less,which makes them longer lasting
~better lather = luxury
Has to do with the above - have youever tried a year or two old rock hard bar? It is a luxury item at my house!
~balanced ph levels = mildersoap
Fresh soaps tend to be squeakyclean instead of silky and lathery…my ph levels are always higher out of themold than after 6-8 weeks of curing. I believe that soaps become milder as theycure. Soaps are a still a bit harsh for sensitive skin up to the 6-8 week curerange. Most of my soaps are shampoo bars which need at least 6 weeks to give a smoothfeel to your skin and hair. My customers appreciate a milder soap because mostof them have sensitive or problem skin, or they have children…or both!

Okay, another thing I wanted towrite about. You mentioned that your recipe is 50% olive oil, 35%b coconut oiland 15% shea butter. I started out with a recipe much like this. Over time I havedecreased my amount of olive oil because it does create a softer soap. Yet,chicklet is right: “Soap gets a LOT better as itages, especially a soap with 50% olive oil.” True. True. True. It just takes along time to get there! At least 8 weeks for a 50% olive oil recipe to turnHARD, from what I have learned. One of my recipes is 60% hard oil and 40% softoil. My shampoo bars are 65% hard and 35% soft. Each of these recipes have12-30% olive oil content. Any more than that creates a super mild, soft bar,which is, again, nice in the long run, but rather inconvenient when you needhard bars fast.

There areso many variables related to this subject! What kind of mold do you use (log,cube, etc)? How big are your batches (lbs)? Does your soap go through a gelstage? Are you able to unmold and cut your soap the day after?

You gotme brainstorming but that is all I can write for now! I hope this helps!

Have awonderful week!

~Emma

YamaliNaturals Soap Shop
www.yamalinaturals.etsy.com

 

[Moody Glenn]

It is absolutely great you have enthusiastic customers but you can easily damage your brand (and reputation) by selling your soap before a proper cure time. If your customers find that their soap (your soap) is not lasting as long as it used to they will start to question its quality. Always keep your quality first and foremost. That being said, be upfront and tell your customers why there is a delay and why the quality of your soap is of top priority. Insist that the soap will be sold as soon as it is ready. Your very best customers will understand this. People love products even more when the products become popular and, at times, unavailable. Maybe try and smooth things over with your customers by giving them a small discount when the soap is ready. I am sure they will like that even more and will be willing to wait for the soap to become ready.

Stick to your tried and true soap recipe or recipes. Now is not the time to experiment by redoing a recipe by trying to speed-up a process that really can not be rushed. Your customers will notice major changes and question these changes. They will then question your business. Don't let that happen! Please don't take offence for my bluntness; I want your company to be very successful. We are all in this type of business together!

 

[Linedog]

We will sell no wine before its time! Oh wait that's a different product. I have come very close to running out of soaps to sell but was able to pull a few strings and have a bit extra on hand. Now I set time aside to soap even if I think I have too much or just the right amount. As previous posters have said, soap just gets better with age.

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

Thank you all again for such overwhelming wonderful advice!

I am not dead set on my recipe yet as I really am focusing on keeping it simple. I should note that I am using olive oil pomace but I doubt that it matters.

Emma, I am using individual square silicone molds, they do not gel and I am able to remove them the next day. I should say that your product looks AWESOME!

Moody Glen, I really appreciate the honest advice, and I appreciate the bluntness!

 

[Relle]

Our problem is supply and demand. People want the soap right now, and we need to find a way to get it to cure faster so we can meet the demand.

We have been using it at 2 weeks old and it feels wonderful and so far everybody we have given samples to think it's great also.

What qualities get better with waiting 6 weeks?

Everyone has already mentioned about the curing, as for the supply and demand part, I would get a bulk lot of soap made let it cure the full length of time and then start selling it and replace what sells the most. Anticipating demand only comes with practice. Here's an article that you might find helpful - http://www.soapmakingforum.com/f23/you-ready-sell-your-soap-16002/

 

[DeeAnna]

"...discount the water (technically goats milk) to 25% instead of 38% then it will make the process faster...."

Um, am I misunderstanding your point? Given the way you've written this, it sounds like you want to make a lye solution that has less NaOH in it, rather than more. This would be counterproductive to your goals.

"Full water" is about 27-28% NaOH in water. That is the "traditional" lye solution. I would use it if I wanted a longer time to trace or with ingredients known to accelerate trace, a new recipe that one might be unsure of, etc. Going with less NaOH than that would increase the likelihood the soap batter will separate in the mold or remain very soft, assuming you're doing cold process soap.

"Discounted water" is any solution with more lye than that. Many folks use more like 33 to 40% NaOH in water for tested, routine recipes. The highest "water discount" that can be used from a practical standpoint would be a 50% solution of NaOH in water. It can be difficult to completely dissolve all the NaOH in a solution that concentrated, but it can be done.

Just checkin' in on the science end of this discussion....

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

DeeAnn, I am glad you brought up trace.. My trace happens ridiculously fast, and this was with me using 35/38% water. You say full water is 27-28%, so that means I have probably been using more than I should which is why my soaps are a little too wet for my liking, making stamping take longer.

 

[julieanne]

Hello!

I agree with all the comments and have one additional comment simply because of the added risk of burning the goat's milk: a decrease in the liquid (goat's milk) used to dissolve your lye will make for a more alkaline lye/water (goat's milk) mixture-stronger, much more caustic, and additional precautions must be taken given the increased risk for burns, etc. With regard to the goat's milk, unless you are ok with the burnt orange color it can get when the lye solution is as strong as I think yours may be, you may want to try a 4-6 bar batch to see how things go.

I adamatly recommend the use of SoapCalc (free & online) to design your ingredients/soap bars. It gives you a look at the quality of your bars -fatty acid profiles, lather achieved, and hardness of the bar. Shoot for at least a 32 hardness value. Tutorials are on youtube and SoapCalc website. I also highly recommend the use of Castor and Palm to boost soap qualities to a level you will love.

Good luck!

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

Soapcalc is what we use, and it's been wonderful!!

You are right about the goats milk, however, I have found a way of adding the lye slowly, frozen, over the course of 15 minutes to prevent it from turning the bar orange. I really dislike the orange bar!!