Water discount of 2%

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Would it make much difference to how fast the batter moves?

I usually soap with water at around 32 % of oils, but this time I went for about 30% of oil, in an effort to stop glycerin rivers with my TD. But the difference it made to how quickly the batter accelerated was very noticeable. I would rather have glycerin rivers, or just not have white soap :)

Thoughts and comments welcome.

TIA
 
Soaping with the water as a percentage of oils can give very variable amounts of water, depending on what oils you use. Water needs to relate to the lye weight, not the oil weight :)

The classic example is to take your 30% water as a percentage of oils and look at a calculator using two distinctly different oils - one coconut, one olive.
For the 100% coconut soap - you will see that the lye concentration is about 38%, which is quite high and will make a coconut soap (that is already quick to saponify) quicker.
Look at the 100% olive, and the lye concentration will be 31%, which will make an olive soap (that is already slow to saponify) slower.

This can lead to somewhat unpredictable results as the lye concentrations vary with the different recipes, so it is better to use either a lye ratio or a lye concentration - then you will have more control over how the water in your recipe affects your soaping outcome :)
 
Thanks oh Salted One - I used a 31% lye concentration, whereas I usually use 30%. Would that make much difference to acceleration?

It was also VERY hot in my kitchen last night ( about 23 degrees at 10pm) so that may not have helped. About to try round two tonight, and I've gone back to my usual lye ratio of 30% and uncreased my slow moving oils to try and have a more successful batch.
 
Thanks oh Salted One - I used a 31% lye concentration, whereas I usually use 30%. Would that make much difference to acceleration?

It was also VERY hot in my kitchen last night ( about 23 degrees at 10pm) so that may not have helped. About to try round two tonight, and I've gone back to my usual lye ratio of 30% and uncreased my slow moving oils to try and have a more successful batch.
Is that hot? Here on the East Coast of Australia we are in a nasty heat wave at the moment. 45 degrees Celsius (113 farenheit) forcast for Western Sydney tomorrow. Fun times!
Maybe you need to take the opportunity to try HP
 
1% water (as lye concentration) shouldn't make a massive difference ...

"It was also VERY hot in my kitchen last night ..."
I reckon if it was VERY hot in your kitchen when you soaped, that would affect how fast your soap batter went (more than a slight change in water).
 
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Is that hot? Here on the East Coast of Australia we are in a nasty heat wave at the moment. 45 degrees Celsius (113 farenheit) forcast for Western Sydney tomorrow. Fun times!
Maybe you need to take the opportunity to try HP
Yeah but you all have air con don't you?
We only get to about 27 during the day but we have high humidity.
 
It is nasy and humid on the coast, it is only a dry heat inland past the mountains. I would say that aircon here is still a luxury. We have aircon, but I would get so sick without it. Our house still gets into the 30s with the aircon going on bad days
I totally understand what you mean about 23 degrees being hot though. For me, that is perfect swimming weather!
 
Yeah but you all have air con don't you?
We only get to about 27 during the day but we have high humidity.
We don’t have aircon.
I soap at 42*C (oils and NaOH) that sort of temp will accelerate a bit but not wildly at 31% lye concentration.

Maybe look at this video again:


With this knowledge you can soap at any temp or lye concentration without batter turning into a pudding.
 
We don’t have aircon.
I soap at 42*C (oils and NaOH) that sort of temp will accelerate a bit but not wildly at 31% lye concentration.

Maybe look at this video again:


With this knowledge you can soap at any temp or lye concentration without batter turning into a pudding.

Believe me, I watch that over and over and over again - I love that video! But I just can't achieve it. I do think it might be the soy wax. Soy wax needs to be hotter I think?
 
Believe me, I watch that over and over and over again - I love that video! But I just can't achieve it. I do think it might be the soy wax. Soy wax needs to be hotter I think?
It doesn’t matter what you use you have to get to emulsion.

Some additives or recipes or methods of soaping (temps) require only 2 seconds of SB total and that might be over a few minutes. Stir everything by hand, wait, SB for 1 second only. Stir by hand and wait.

Add FOs or EOs to the oils before anything else so you get a better idea of the speed of emulsion with your particular recipe.

I have notes on my different recipes “SB 3 seconds only” or “SB 2 minutes”.
 
My FOs were very naughty which didn't help either.
I should clarify my opening statement, when i said I usually soap with water around 32% of oils. It's not that I use that to calculate my recipe my with. I always go for a lye concentration of 30%, which in my recipes tends to then mean that I am around water as 32% of oils. In this recipe, following some advice regarding trying to minimise glycerin rivers when using TD, I deliberately changed my 'usual' lye concentration, aiming for a water discount. Perhaps I did the wrong thing?
I thought water discount was the same as superfatting effectively, ie a larger superfat equals a bigger water discount? how else could I calculate a water discount?
Anyway - all else being equal with my recipe, the only thing that was significantly different was the lye concentration was heavier at approx 31.5%, and the water as a percentage of oils was 30% when it usually works out to nearer 32%.
 
My FOs were very naughty which didn't help either.
I should clarify my opening statement, when i said I usually soap with water around 32% of oils. It's not that I use that to calculate my recipe my with. I always go for a lye concentration of 30%, which in my recipes tends to then mean that I am around water as 32% of oils. In this recipe, following some advice regarding trying to minimise glycerin rivers when using TD, I deliberately changed my 'usual' lye concentration, aiming for a water discount. Perhaps I did the wrong thing?
I thought water discount was the same as superfatting effectively, ie a larger superfat equals a bigger water discount? how else could I calculate a water discount?
Anyway - all else being equal with my recipe, the only thing that was significantly different was the lye concentration was heavier at approx 31.5%, and the water as a percentage of oils was 30% when it usually works out to nearer 32%.

Hi again KiwiMoose :)

Lye concentration is the amount of water in relation to the amount of the alkali (usually sodium hydroxide) you are using. Sodium hydroxide will fully dissolve in it's own weight in water, which will give you a lye concentration of 50%. We normally use more water than this, to make our soap smooth and easy to make, but a lot of the water we use at the start ends up evaporating away as part of the curing process (there's more going on than just evaporation, but for now, it's good to know that some water is lost to evaporation). The alkali, which has been dissolved in the water we've used, and chemically reacted with the oils and fats to make our soap and glycerin, remains in the soap in roughly the same amount as was originally added, just in another form (it has become the soap, so it does not leave during the cure like the water does).
So lye concentration is a way of describing the amount of water we are using to make our recipe (an increase in the lye concentration is a decrease in the amount of water used in the recipe).

Superfatting is a term used to describe the amount of excess oil in the recipe. For a hot process soap, it can literally be extra fat added to the recipe (a true superfat). For our cold process soaps, the superfat is more often calculated by reducing the amount of the alkali (again, our sodium hydroxide in this example) so that some oil is left unreacted (not converted to soap).
So the superfat is (for our cold process soap example) a way of describing an adjustment to the amount of alkali we are using in the recipe (a decrease in the alkali is an increase in the superfat).

It is best to completely ignore the water as a percentage of oils, as the two are not directly related to each other (the water is related to the alkali, to get the lye concentration, and the alkali varies depending on what fats and oils you are using - it is not possible to get a sensible water value from just the total oil weight, it must vary with the saponification value of each of the oils, hence the better use of the lye concentration or lye ratio).

From what you are saying, you have varied your recipe to add more soy wax? It would be easiest to work out what is happening if you can post your full recipe (with weights) and a description of the technique you used, but if you would prefer not to do this, then describing carefully the change that you made (to the recipe ingredients and your technique) might be enough to help work out how to help slow down this recipe a bit. I would also ask whether you are using the Golden Wax 415 blend that was talked about, or another brand/blend of soy wax (this may also make a difference).

So ... how much wax did you try, what oil did you take out and were there any other changes? (it's starting to sound like it was neither the temperature nor the water amount, however both of these can have an impact & it is also useful to know that little changes can compound - so an accelerating FO, with a bit of extra heat and a little less water adds together to speed up saponification/trace, if that makes sense?).
 
Thanks Salty - that's all as I understood it, so at least I'm clear on that one. I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out for me.
I didn't change my recipe (much!) in terms of the oils I usually use - but I did change it in terms of the lye concentration as mentioned above. I always use 20% soy wax, but this time I reduce the shea to 7% from my usual 15% - instead I made up the difference (8%) with cocoa butter and calculated the recipe on soap calc accordingly.
Yes, I do use GW415, the one with no other additives.
I used a little less water yes, and had a naughty FO and it was very warm/humid inside, so yes, a perfect storm you reckon?
 
And the cocoa butter would have added to the storm as well (I hadn't experienced that myself in a big way, and even wrote so, but a significant number of people mentioned cocoa butter as another one that speeds up saponification, so multi-person experience counting that one too :)).

Yes, a perfect storm! Good way to put it. A little bit from each of:
  • Too much stick blending
  • A naughty FO (this could be a big contributor btw)
  • Replacing Shea butter with Cocoa butter
  • Hot/humid conditions
  • A little less water
My suggested alterations (to see if you can get this recipe under control):
  • add your naughty FO to your oils first, and stickblend it in (this advice is from the experience of others: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/working-with-accelerating-fos.39982/)
  • melt your cocoa butter and soy wax separately, and let these get as cool as they can (when they stay a little cloudy on stirring - that's where they are just starting to re-solidify, but will easily re-melt with the heat of the saponification reaction)
  • let your lye cool to room temperature (to "no warmer than just warm to touch")
  • mix your soap batter to emulsion (using newbie's video and PJ's stirring advice) by hand stirring (and a single zap of the stick blender once a minute)
If you've used the naughty FO successfully before (in other recipes), just doing the first and the last (on my list) might be enough to "break" the storm :)
 
The advise to mix the FO to the oils first never worked for me. As you say, as soon as the lye water touches the oils it starts accelerating. So honestly i just do everything i want to do (colors, aditives etc) and as the last step i add the FO but you need to start working as soon as you hit emulsion. Once everything is incorporated y add the FO and stir by hand until i can see it is incorporated and then mold as fast as possible. Of course this wont let you do oretty swirls but i honestly already gave up on them cause mayority of my FO accelerate like that.
 
The advise to mix the FO to the oils first never worked for me. As you say, as soon as the lye water touches the oils it starts accelerating. So honestly i just do everything i want to do (colors, aditives etc) and as the last step i add the FO but you need to start working as soon as you hit emulsion. Once everything is incorporated y add the FO and stir by hand until i can see it is incorporated and then mold as fast as possible. Of course this wont let you do oretty swirls but i honestly already gave up on them cause mayority of my FO accelerate like that.

This is very similar to I do with accelerating EO's.

The only (slight) difference is I reserve a little of the oil from the batch, and mix up the EO with that first, then add the oil/EO mix at the end and hand stir it in (the extra oil makes dispersing the EO into the batter a little quicker and easier, so I don't get EO spots).
 
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