Water discount and Savon de Marseille

[Soapman Ryan]

As I've read, Savon de Marseille is 72% oils. Soapcalc requires 100% oils to be entered to calculate. Would this mean if I entered olive oil at 100% and adjusted the "water as % of oils" to 28%, instead of 38%, is this how I would calculate the lye and water amount for a soap bar similar to Savon de Marseille?

 

[houseofwool]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille_soap

It looks like it is made with sea water as well, but is essentially a variation of Castile. The 72% olive oil means they are making a Bastille. A quick search shows that palm and coconut are part of the other 28%. The Wikipedia article also mentions using calcium carbonate along with sodium hydroxide.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Having so much olive oil should I do any water discount?

 

[DeeAnna]

"... is this how I would calculate the lye and water amount for a soap bar similar to Savon de Marseille?..."

Yes, that is correct.

"...Having so much olive oil should I do any water discount?..."

Not if you want to make the recipe according to what you wrote in your first post. If not, then choose a lye solution anywhere from 28% up to 50% (if you're feeling adventurous). This is the percent NaOH in the lye-water solution.

I usually use 33%, but I have not made a castile type soap, so I cannot comment on that specifically.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

"
Not if you want to make the recipe according to what you wrote in your first post. If not, then choose a lye solution anywhere from 28% up to 50% (if you're feeling adventurous). This is the percent NaOH in the lye-water solution."

Thanks, I thought 28% instead of 38% would be the water discount.

"I usually use 33%, but I have not made a castile type soap, so I cannot comment on that specifically."

Why did you choose 33%, may I ask?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Why did you choose 33%, may I ask?..."

Sure!

Some background: Once upon a time, someone decided that a lye solution made with about 28% NaOH was "full water", and any recipe using a lye solution more concentrated than that was a "discounted water" recipe.

I have no idea why this terminology came about. As someone with work experience in an industrial chemistry lab, I find this really weird. But, hey, whatever....

In any case, "full water" translates to about 28% NaOH in water. For typical soap making, this is the weakest lye solution you would want to use. Pros and cons:

More water slows the time to trace. If you are using ingredients that accelerate trace, more water can slow things down so you have more time to get the soap colored and in the mold. If you are a beginner, a slow tracing recipe is a Very Good Thing to have so you have time to understand the process. HP soaps may be easier to cook with more water to begin with (I have little experience with HP soap, though).

For soaps with moderate to high levels of solid fats, "full water" works fine. For soaps that are mostly or all liquid fats, a CP soap made with a 28% lye solution may separate in the mold or it might stay very soft in the mold for longer than you might like. Soap made with full water also cures and hardens more slowly, because more water has to evaporate from the bars.

At the other extreme, a 50% NaOH solution is the strongest lye solution that is practical to use. If you try to make a lye solution that is much stronger than about 52% NaOH, the solid NaOH will never dissolve. Even at 50%, it can be difficult to dissolve the NaOH quickly and easily. Pros and cons:

Trace may be faster -- much faster -- which is an advantage for a very slow tracing soap. CP soap made with all (or mostly) liquid fats may be less likely to separate in the mold if you use a more concentrated lye solution. Less moisture has to evaporate during the cure time, so the soap may harden up a bit faster.

Why do I use a 33% NaOH solution? It is a balance between the two extremes that has been working fine for me.

I might try 40% as time goes on and see how that works for my recipes. I haven't seen a reason to use 28% yet, but I might change my tune with more experience.

I have used a 50% solution as a master solution for making milk soaps, but doubt I will use a 50% solution directly in my soap. There is too little margin for measuring error, operator error, and safety when working with the concentrated solution, IMO.

 

[mel z]

Thank you DeeAnna.

It took me a while to figure it all out, but I wanted to say I love your posts. They explain everything very clearly to me. This one is no exception.

 

[Serenity]

Hi Ryan

I believe the 72% refers to the percentage of olive oil in the soap, as part of the total oils. So for example you might have 72% olive oil, 28% coconut oil. The following is quoted from www.savons.com.au:

"This genuine Marseille soap (savon de Marseille) is handcrafted according to the traditional method and is 100% natural, with 72% olive oil."

I made a soap with 80% olive oil, 20% coconut oil, and a 40% lye solution (because I'm impatient and I don't like to wait more than a day to cut my soap). It hardened up very quickly and was rock hard in 10 hours, plus it was a bit crumbly around the edges, so next time I won't do such a strong lye solution. I have used a 36% lye solution many times with no problems, so I think that next time I would try somewhere between 33% - 36% lye solution.

I hope this helps.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Hi Ryan

I believe the 72% refers to the percentage of olive oil in the soap, as part of the total oils. So for example you might have 72% olive oil, 28% coconut oil. The following is quoted from www.savons.com.au:

"This genuine Marseille soap (savon de Marseille) is handcrafted according to the traditional method and is 100% natural, with 72% olive oil."

I made a soap with 80% olive oil, 20% coconut oil, and a 40% lye solution (because I'm impatient and I don't like to wait more than a day to cut my soap). It hardened up very quickly and was rock hard in 10 hours, plus it was a bit crumbly around the edges, so next time I won't do such a strong lye solution. I have used a 36% lye solution many times with no problems, so I think that next time I would try somewhere between 33% - 36% lye solution.

I hope this helps.

Melissa,
Thanks for the link. What superfat did you use in your soap?

 

[bodhi]

Go DeeAnna! Youre on quite a roll recreating this soap.

Soapman, you better post a pic when its done

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Go DeeAnna! Youre on quite a roll recreating this soap.

Soapman, you better post a pic when its done

I'm not making this particular soap, as I didn't like the thought of adding salt to my soap. I'm working on my own bastille and used this for reference.

 

[Serenity]

Hi Ryan

5% superfat.

 

[scrubbie]

Here is an example of a Marsellie. This is a personal recipe that I used. I studied the Marsellie. Remember that sea water is 3 percent salinity. So I like 72 percent Olive, 20 PKO, 5 Percent Castor, 3 percent Luxury Oil ( Apricot, Cherry Kernel, Avocado, Whatever you like) This is my Marsellie style soap recipe.

 

[scrubbie]

Second Marsellie recipe

If you want a more authentic recipe try 72 olive, 20 pko and 8 sustainable palm. Superfat at 5-6% discount the water to twice your lye amount if you know the fragrance.

 

[dcotton1]

I hope I am able to contact someone regarding a recipe and process for Marseille soap. Any information is greatly appreciated.