water amount for liquid soap?

[rosetown]

Hi all,
I think i searched everywhere. I cant find the amount of water to add to the KOH when making liquid soap in %. When i use soapcalc for calculating i use standard 38% water of oils. Do I use more or less water in recipe? And when diluting I read somewhere to use 60% water of finished soap mass weight, and somewhere 1 1/5 x the finished soap mass. Anyone that could help me out with this. I cant go further with the liquid soap testing, also different soap calculators use different water amounts and KOH amount(90% pure) that even more confusing.

/thankful for help

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I'd check this thread out http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Lots of top info there.

 

[rosetown]

I'd check this thread out http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Lots of top info there.

Thank you, tried to search in forum didn't find!

 

[Susie]

Since that is my CP Liquid Soap thread start, let me make one correction here. I now use this calculator for liquid soap if I am not mixing my lyes. Works the best for me. And you can use grams or ounces. Much easier.

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

Dilution water depends on the oils used. CO uses somewhere in the vicinity of 1:2(paste weight:water weight), OO somewhere in the vicinity of 1:3. If I am making a new recipe with mixed oils, I add half the paste weight in water to start dilution and keep adding until I am down to 1-2 small lumps. I do record the total amount for future reference. The best thing you can do is to weigh the pot before beginning to make soap in it, so you can weigh the pot after the soap is made and know the paste weight.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...When i use soapcalc for calculating i use standard 38% water of oils. Do I use more or less water in recipe?..."

Susie answered your question about diluting the paste after its made. Like she explained, be patient and dilute slowly especially with a new recipe. A very common mistake is to add too much water and end up with a runny product. It is MUCH easier to fix a liquid soap that is too thick than it is to fix it when it's too thin.

To make the paste itself, I suggest setting your lye concentration to 25%. This is the same thing as a "water to lye ratio" of 3 to 1. I don't know what that number is when talking about "water as % of oils". The Summerbeemeadow calc will do this for you automatically. You will need to change this setting yourself if you are using Soapcalc.

 

[rosetown]

Since that is my CP Liquid Soap thread start, let me make one correction here. I now use this calculator for liquid soap if I am not mixing my lyes. Works the best for me. And you can use grams or ounces. Much easier.

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

Dilution water depends on the oils used. CO uses somewhere in the vicinity of 1:2(paste weight:water weight), OO somewhere in the vicinity of 1:3. If I am making a new recipe with mixed oils, I add half the paste weight in water to start dilution and keep adding until I am down to 1-2 small lumps. I do record the total amount for future reference. The best thing you can do is to weigh the pot before beginning to make soap in it, so you can weigh the pot after the soap is made and know the paste weight.

I'm using olive,coconut,castor,safflower,avocado and almond oil.
I will now try the cold process, I think I got it.

I just didn't get some things: I add lye(hot) to coconut, then add soft oils after it melts, then zap test after 10-15 min(and dilute), should I wait longer to get a more clear soap? how long? 1 hour-2 etc.You said something about that. I'm not in so much hurry . and then start diluting, should I dilute with cold water or warm? And after adding 50% water, is the rest water I'm adding adjusting consistency? so when I think its thick enough I stop?

"...When i use soapcalc for calculating i use standard 38% water of oils. Do I use more or less water in recipe?..."

Susie answered your question about diluting the paste after its made. Like she explained, be patient and dilute slowly especially with a new recipe. A very common mistake is to add too much water and end up with a runny product. It is MUCH easier to fix a liquid soap that is too thick than it is to fix it when it's too thin.

To make the paste itself, I suggest setting your lye concentration to 25%. This is the same thing as a "water to lye ratio" of 3 to 1. I don't know what that number is when talking about "water as % of oils". The Summerbeemeadow calc will do this for you automatically. You will need to change this setting yourself if you are using Soapcalc.

I will use summer bee, And I got a recipe now, I will try to make the soap and see what I get. my last soap was to runny, I think I diluted with 2 x soap. I will start of with 50% and go my way up to a good consistency. I'm also superfatting with 2 %, I would also try 3% later on,

 

[Susie]

Rosetown, stop now. Go re-read that thread. You missed some vital information.

 

[DeeAnna]

As far as cloudiness, Susie said in her tutorial:

"...I then zap test. Yep, no cooking, no waiting hours or weeks, just 10-15 minutes. I have yet to be zapped after making 9 batches of various soaps using this technique. So, if you like, and are in a hurry, dilute now. However, I am not promising clear soap if you dilute now. It will clear up eventually, even if diluted, if you use 0% superfat and properly weighed and made the soap. But it may not be clear right away. I have some of this laundry soap that was white when first diluted(pulls jar out of cabinet) a couple of weeks ago, and it is clear now. But it was VERY not clear when first diluted. So, don't come complaining to me if it is cloudy, OK?..."

"...should I dilute with cold water or warm?..."

Dilute with cold or warm. Either one will work. Cold will take longer, but if you're not in a hurry, it's not going to hurt anything. I just add water to the soap paste and let the mix sit on the counter for a day or so. If you're in a hurry, add heat. Susie explained: "...Once I add half the paste weight (in this case about 32 oz) in water, I then add heat, and break up the soap paste to increase surface area. I only add heat to speed dilution, not to complete saponification...."

I (DeeAnna) will also add that I use distilled water to make and dilute my liquid soap. If your tap water is "hard", the minerals in the water can make the diluted soap cloudy. Cloudiness from "hard" water can make you think the soap is not made correctly, even though the soap is fine. Distilled water does not have these minerals, so it won't cause this type of problem.

"...nd after adding 50% water, is the rest water I'm adding adjusting consistency? so when I think its thick enough I stop? ..."

The short answers are -- yes and yes. Susie says: "...Once I add half the paste weight(in this case about 32 oz) in water, I then add heat, and break up the soap paste to increase surface area. I only add heat to speed dilution, not to complete saponification. This will not be enough water, but it is where you begin. I then add about 4 oz of water at the time until I get down to one or two small lumps of soap paste. I then add about a tablespoon of water until I am down to one small soap lump. I then stop, as this will melt while the soap is cooling enough to handle it. Write down how much water this took, so you know for the next batch...."

 

[rosetown]

Ok, so I read and did everything as planed. I just now noticed something.
(see picture)
soapcalc: 380 water
summerbee: 622 water

I used summerbee and did my soap, tracing took forever and still i don't think
its how its should be. It's also a little difference in the KOH amount.
So my question is, did I use to much water (622g)?
And thats why I think tracing took so long time, I know it takes longer with KOH and so on, but i think i mixed at least 30min or more.

After getting a litter thicker trace I zap test, and my tongue burned of
Can you see what's wrong here?
My guess is that I should use a less amount of water like soapcalc says.
the KOH amount don't differ to much.

-DeeAnna, I calculated at soapcalc for 25% lye conc and now the recipe is almost exactly like the one from summerbee. (2% superfat)

Now I'm really confused
My soap should be thicker and the zap test shouldn't zap me that much i believe.
What am I doing wrong

 

[shunt2011]

If it's still zapping you will need to heat it some or just leave it alone. It takes time for saponification to take place. Until then you will get zapped. However, it should be fairly thick not runny in my experience anyway.

 

[Susie]

You need to re-read the tutorial. In there, I explained that I use the SBM calculator because it calls for more water. I also explained that I use either grated hand made bar soap OR glycerin to speed trace.

I do not know what you are calling trace. In bar soap(using NaOH) making, trace is still liquid, but you can see where the drops fell for a few seconds. In liquid soap making, trace is a thick paste that your stick blender can no longer move. If your soap did not reach that thick paste consistency, it is not ready to zap test. If it did, and you still get zap, then we need to troubleshoot further.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

that was my failure when I made it - I didn't get it to the right point, merely to a pudding-like state

 

[rosetown]

Today the soap looks like it should i think. A thicker paste, Vaseline seetrough. Pretty hard but still able to mix with spatula. .
I added 50% water, and I'm bringing some heat with crocpot. and now i wait. I hope this turns out fine. I will add a little bit of water after it melts a bit.
I did a zap test before I added the water, it was a very slow zap. after 2-4 sec.

 

[Susie]

A zap is an immediate shock. Not a slow sensation. I am not sure what you mean by "pretty hard, but still able to mix with a spatula". If it is the correct consistency to begin dilution, you are scooping globs off of it, not mixing it. As an example of what I mean; if my soap paste is cool to the touch, I use my fingers to reach in and pull globs off. I do wear gloves for that, not because of unsaponified lye, but because it takes forever to get soap paste out from under your fingernails.

 

[rosetown]

A zap is an immediate shock. Not a slow sensation. I am not sure what you mean by "pretty hard, but still able to mix with a spatula". If it is the correct consistency to begin dilution, you are scooping globs off of it, not mixing it. As an example of what I mean; if my soap paste is cool to the touch, I use my fingers to reach in and pull globs off. I do wear gloves for that, not because of unsaponified lye, but because it takes forever to get soap paste out from under your fingernails.

It looks like it should I have diluted and its looking good.
now I just wait. I added 50% water and now 200g more.
I also brake up the lumps with my hands, and gloves of course.
I think It will turn out nicely.

 

[Susie]

Sounds like you are definitely on the right track now!