Triple milling makes harder soap?

[ampedal]

Hi guys,

I have been making CP soap with fairly consistent success. I have only heard positive things about my soap, but nobody raves about it.

To me, my soap feels soft and does not last as long as I would like.

Not too long ago I went to a craft fair and saw a CP soaper. She told me that her bars are hard because she triple mills them.

Would triple milling my soap increase their longevity? I image I could create a large batch of unscented / uncolored CP soap, mill it twice, and then add the coloring/scent on the third rebatch. Can anyone point me towards more information on this topic?

Thank you!

 

[Genny]

Triple milling does make a harder bar of soap because of the natural glycerin and water that's been lost during the repeated cooking.

Here's some info on rebatching/remilling
http://www.millersoap.com/re.html

 

[IrishLass]

Here is a thread from a few years ago that talks about this subject:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14255&p=130063&hilit=+triple+milled#p130063


Triple milling (genuine triple milling', that is), is impossible to do at home. It is made from de-glycerinized soap flakes that are pressed through steel rollers under high pressure 3 times while different additives are added each time it goes through. Here is a site that explains the triple milling process well, although they leave out the details where the naturally occurring glycerin is removed before being put through the rollers:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_4967334_what- ... -soap.html

Many people confuse rebatched soap with milled soap, but they are not the same. It makes me wonder if the CP soaper you met at the fair is not actually selling her own handmade soap, but is really a re-seller instead (re-packaging and re-selling soaps from larger companies that have milling machines).


IrishLass

 

[ampedal]

She claimed to be making the soap herself.

Would it make a difference if were to rebatch a soap 3 times versus just doing it once? Does it get harder every time you rebatch?

I definitely don't have an industrial setting with high-pressure steel rollers - so anything I would be doing to make my soap harder is with household materials.

 

[IrishLass]

Would it make a difference if were to rebatch a soap 3 times versus just doing it once? Does it get harder every time you rebatch?

If you ask me, it would make no difference. Rebatched soap needs a certain amount of water content to be able to mold it properly, and also for it to be able to hold itself together properly.

Based on my own rebatches, if the soap does not have enough water in it as you are melting/softening it, it becomes very difficult to work with and tends to break apart or get crumbly. It's different for genuine triple-milled soap, because the millers are not cooking the soap 3 times, they are pressure rolling it 3 times.

If what you are after is hardness, a traditional re-batch is just a no-win situation because no matter how many times you re-heat/rebatch your soap, it's going to need that extra water to stay workable for you when you go to mold it. And extra water = softness = extra cure time for the water to evaporate out. The extra re-heatings may also leave your soap vulnerable to rancidity.

My recipe for a hard bar of handmade soap is just to design my recipe to be hard at the formula level up front, do a water discount as I am making it via CP, and then give it a good cure. While it will never be as densely hard as triple milled (because of the superfat and naturally occurring glycerin content in mine), it's definitely hard enough to do some serious damage if I were to bean someone upside the head with it. Not that I've ever done that, mind you (although I've been tempted to a time or two). :wink:

IrishLass

 

[motherhues]

generally the only way to have a hard bar of soap is to not overuse soft oils and butters and to have a long cure to remove any excess water. Most handmade need quite a long cure to be very firm. how long are you curing your soaps before using them? Do you use a water discount? Do you have an excess of soft oils or butters?

Generally, a handmade bar of soap will wash away faster than a commercially made soap, and as Irish Lass says, its impossible to do in a home crafting space unless you have industrial equipment That is probably just a way for that soaper to sound like she has special techniques :mrgreen: to sell her soap. Otherwise, she is just rebatching over and over, which most likely doesn't really do much for her soap... but I don't have any experience with rebatching as the few times I tried it, it was waaaaaaaay too much work for results i didn't really like

 

[ampedal]

I have let some of my bars cure for 6+ months, and they are still somewhat soft compared to mass-produced soap.

I primarily use this recipe:

12oz coconut oil
12oz olive oil
9.5oz soybean oil
8oz palm oil
12.5oz distilled water
6oz lye

heat oils to 100f
mix lye and water, let it cool to 100f
combine lye solution and oils
add coloring
add frangrance
stir to trace (usually seconds)

pour in mold. let sit for a day or two, unmold and cure for 3-4 months.

This recipe is more because I have used it and it works, and it uses up my soy (of which I have vast amounts)

 

[IrishLass]

Handmade soap will always be somewhat softer in comparison to mass produced soap because it still contains all the naturally occurring glycerin from saponification, and also because we superfat our soaps to avoid lye-heaviness (but those are the things that make it so much nicer to use than massed produced, if you ask me).

I looked at your recipe on SoapCalc and you have a high percent of linoleic acid in your formula, which tends to make for a softer soap in general. If it were me, I would drop the soybean % down a bit in order to bring the total linoleic down, and then add the difference to the olive oil and/or palm oil amounts instead. Dropping the soybean down will also help to prevent DOS in your soap (soybean oil in rich in linoleic). Most soapers try to limit their total linoleic to 15% or below to keep DOS at bay. Hopefully others will chime in with their suggestions.

IrishLass