Thickening problem again - salt curve and distilled water

[Jor224]

Hi, for those who are familiar with me, yes it's thickening issue again.

Quick note on what I've done so far:
1. soap paste, 70% extra virgin olive and 30% coco.
2. 40% lye solution.
3. 1% superfat.
4. Let the soap paste sit for 2 days, passed zap test.
5. Dilute them in warm water, around 50-60 C.
6. Make 20% salt water solution.
7. Dillute soap paste at paste:water 1:4.
8. Total liquid weight was around 560 gram.
9. I dissolved the salt 0.1-0.2% at a time (3-6 gram of salt water) and blended them in between and let them sit for 5-10 minutes before the next salt addition.

All water involved in the process is distilled water that I filtered myself using machine.

Now it has reached 2% salt and no sign of thickening at all. It's very watery. When I stirred it, the liquid will become white. after some time, small layer of green appeared at the bottom and continue to arise. But they're still watery.

Now I suspect my distilled water was the culprit. When I measured it with TDS (total dissolved solid) meter, the score was 25-29 mg/l. My distilled water might be of different standard than you guys. What is the score of distilled water that you guys use? Btw, if you have any other suggestion, I reaaaaaaly welcome it since I'm so confused. Maybe another failure and I'll go back to focus on my ongoing business with synthetic surfactant. Thickening oil based soap is tough.

From my dozen attempts to thicken soap, two times success. I don't know what's right or wrong, because I tried to mimic the ingredients and method but ended up failing again. I bring up idea of distilled water because just recall that last time the score was 17-19, lower than what it is now.

 

[DeeAnna]

Since this is a continuation of your previous thread, I don't understand why you have started a new thread about the same problem. People wanting to follow this story now have to hunt for the other thread. That's confusing and unnecessary.

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Distilled water should have less than 1 ppm (mg/L) dissolved solids. The TDS of your water is more like softened water, not distilled. This needs to be fixed, especially if you don't want your liquid soap to be cloudy.

I gather you are using that stick blender to blend the salt into the soap. If so, think about the idea that you could gently stir the soap with a spoon or spatula and make a whole lot less foam. You're trying to mix two miscible liquids that mix easily, not shear and emulsify immiscible liquids. High intensity mixing in this application is NOT helpful.

You need to slow down. Thickening with salt is chemistry, and chemistry often takes time. Waiting 5-10 minutes is not nearly enough, especially with all that foam and stick blending. I suggest you wait 2 hours between each addition of salt as you learn the process. Next time you'll know what works well, and you can proceed accordingly.

The salt has to react with the soap molecules to form micelles, and that process takes time. These micelles are the key to creating the thickening, and you have to have the patience to wait long enough for them to form.

If you keep breaking up the soap micelles by stick blending and then not giving the soap-salt mixture enough time for the foam to subside and the mixture to stabilize, you'll find failure far more than success. Thickening a liquid cleanser, whether syndet or soap, with salt or any other thickener requires patience and care.

 

[atiz]

Agree with DeeAnna -- I have made the same mistake before (not the stick-blending one, but the being impatient one) when trying to thicken some syndet things. Waiting really is the key, and waiting long enough.
Good luck!

 

[shunt2011]

This is the fifth post with the same question just different recipes.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

1. soap paste, 70% extra virgin olive and 30% coco.

Salt brine is used to thicken 100% olive oil liquid soap. It will not thicken liquid soap that contains over 20% coconut oil. Sad but true. I'm sorry you've had so much trouble figuring this out and I hope this helps. To thicken your LS you will need to use a different product. Here's a link to a site that has good information about the basics of liquid soap-making for beginners with a special section for thickeners. I've been making LS for a very long time. I've tried just about every "thickener" out there and never found one that I liked.

Thickening Liquid Soap

I've been making LS for a very long time. I've tried just about every "thickener" out there and never found one that I liked. For me, the key to finding the right viscosity begins at the dilution stage. In general:
100% Olive Oil LS = 15% paste + 85% dilution water
100% Coconut Oil LS = 40% paste + 60% dilution water
All other formulas will fall somewhere in between.

You will know when you have reached the correct dilution when a thin film forms on the surface. Add just enough water to incorporate the film and you're done.

 

[Jor224]

Thanks for the responses, I'll continue from this thread for same topic. The salt usage rules has many references, one say 50% oleic and above, other says as long as no coconut is fine. @Zany_in_CO criteria seems to be another different category. For now I'll follow yours.

I'll stick to whisk, small batch, and 2 hours salt for each addition.

I was frustrated because my first attempt without knowing all these things lead me to good thick coconut palm olive soap (c : p : o 3:3:4). When I repeated the same thing, and several tweaks here and there to find out what's wrong, for the past two months, nothing works.

 

[Jor224]

So I want to give update on my experiments. It works after three times trying. First and second try was with pomace and evoo, the method remains the same except for replacing immersion blender with whisk, and I waited around 1-2 hours everytime I add salt. It doesn't work. The third time worked by changing one thing, the water. I decided to buy pure water from chemical store. The water has TDS score of 2, much lower compared to own produce distilled water with 30-40 TDS score (the machine performance has decreased so much after several years). Perhaps few successful experiments back then was cause by water quality that happened to be better from government.

I'll continue making several batch to confirm, so sorry for the suggestion given, but I won't follow some of those as 30% coconut works fine with salt. I think I'll stick to oleic score above 50%. Also, giving two hours for each salt addition was too long. Mine thickens well with 5-10 minutes rest after each addition. Although the first time was around 1 hour +, with reduced rest time after each addition.

 

[Jor224]

Hi, update. This time I'm using EVOO. it won't thicken, instead when I added salt, it quickly formed paste and separated with soap water. See picture for detail.

I heated them on stove without boiling them. They were mixed, but would not thickened. So far my salt has reached 20 grams for 770 soap water, around 2.6%.

Now I observed it again, it forms layers of green soap water and thick white foam.

Any idea why? Have you guys encounter this in soapmaking?