Thickening coconut oil liquid soap. Help!

[heather s]

I made some liquid soap using all coconut oil. I mainly want to use it as dish soap as the liquid soaps I've made with olive oil etc aren't cleansing enough. I used 60% potassium hydroxide plus 40% sodium hydroxide so it wouldn't be thin. I also used borax to thicken even more and diluted at 2.5 x's the paste weight. Guess what! It is still too thin! I've read that salt doesn't help ls with high amounts of coconut oil so I haven't tried that. I did heat it to boiling and evaporate some of the water off. It is crystal clear which is nice but I don't want it pouring out of the dish soap bottle. I haven't added any eo's yet so it is not that. This is my first time using sodium hydroxide in ls - does it thicken as it sits for a while? Should I wait a few days or weeks and revisit it or is there something else I can try?

 

[Susie]

How, exactly, did you get to the "dilute at 2.5 times the paste weight" amount?

I probably would have started at about 0.75 times the paste weight at the most(because of the coconut oil) then added a little at the time until the last chunks were gone.

If you did that, then you are going to have to get some sort of commercial thickener and use that to thicken it.

Home made liquid soap is just thinner than the commercial synthetic detergent stuff we are accustomed to. That does not bother me, but I understand it does bother others.

 

[heather s]

Yes. It was a lot of water. When I use KOH I don't use a set amount I just dilute slowly until it feels "right". The 2.5 amount came from what I have read about using both lyes. I have some crothix that I use with shampoo but I was hoping not to "waste" it on a soap I made for around the house. Oh well. :-/ Live and learn.

 

[Susie]

I have a challenge for you if you have not already used the Crothix.

Try the unthickened liquid soap for a week. Just 7 days. See if you can adjust to a thinner consistency for your own use. It took me about that to get the hang of it, but now I have no problems.

And next time, start with half the paste weight in water. Then add in water until you melt the next to last lump. I usually can just wait for the last one to melt. Then record on your batch page how much water it took. Figure out what is 2/3 of that, and start with that number of oz next time. I never add the full amount of water due to our really high humidity here. There are other variables, but I have never had it take less than 2/3.

 

[Ellacho]

I did not know you can use both KOH & NaOH in making liquid soap.... I thought you only use the KOH....Let me google it first!

 

[Tienne]

Heather S, I haven't made liquid soap yet, but I am gathering up the courage to give it try, so may I ask, how do you figure out how much borax to add and when and how do you add it? Does the amount one adds depend on which oils one uses? I've read about adding borax, but I haven't yet come across any specifics. I'd really like to try making a CO soap for doing dishes, too.

 

[DawninWA]

Guar gum thickens. 1/2 to 1 tsp per cup, approx.

 

[heather s]

Ohhh! I do have some guar gum I will try that.
I wanted this one to be thicker because hubby tends to dump it into the cleaning water - my hope was that if the viscosity is thicker he will not be so gung-ho with it ;-)
As far as the borax - Usually when it is used it is to lower ph. I dissolve 3 oz borax in 9 oz boiling water and keep adding and testing ph until it is in the range I want. It will also slightly thicken.
If the guar gum doesn't work I am going to try whipping up another smaller batch of paste and adding it to what I've got. Next time I will just have to dilute a lot slower. I have a feeling that using both lyes would mean less water rather than more. I will see next time.

 

[seven]

i have much success with xanthan gum. mix it with glycerin first then dump it to the hot/warm soap. it doesn't thicken right away, but it will at the end.

 

[Susie]

Ohhh! I do have some guar gum I will try that.
I wanted this one to be thicker because hubby tends to dump it into the cleaning water - my hope was that if the viscosity is thicker he will not be so gung-ho with it ;-)
As far as the borax - Usually when it is used it is to lower ph. I dissolve 3 oz borax in 9 oz boiling water and keep adding and testing ph until it is in the range I want. It will also slightly thicken.
If the guar gum doesn't work I am going to try whipping up another smaller batch of paste and adding it to what I've got. Next time I will just have to dilute a lot slower. I have a feeling that using both lyes would mean less water rather than more. I will see next time.

Oh! You have one of "those" people around!(me too) I put my dish soap into a pump dispenser and let them use no more than 2 pumps/sinkful.

 

[FGOriold]

First you can try to simmer out some of the excess water. 100% coconut oil liquid soap does not need a lot of water to fully dilute it. I find that mixed lye soaps don't always create a thicker soap but do give the soap more "body". The dual lye seems to be most effective on creating a thicker liquid soap when you use a high amount of olive oil (probably due to the relationship of the sodium with olive oil similar to how you can thicken 100% olive oil soap with just plain table salt.)

Another option is to use HEC or HPMC to thicken your diluted soap - both are very effective but must be incorporated correctly.

 

[Susie]

Heather S, I haven't made liquid soap yet, but I am gathering up the courage to give it try, so may I ask, how do you figure out how much borax to add and when and how do you add it? Does the amount one adds depend on which oils one uses? I've read about adding borax, but I haven't yet come across any specifics. I'd really like to try making a CO soap for doing dishes, too.

There is no need to use Borax to neutralize liquid soap if you use a good lye calculator. Keep the superfat between 0-3% for most uses. If you are going to use both NaOH and KOH, use this calculator unless you are better in math than I am.

http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps

 

[Tienne]

Thanks so much for the link Susie, that's good to have! Bookmarked! It wasn't so much for neutralizing though, as for thickening. I was just wondering if there are any ppo guidelines or pr weight of ls rules regarding adding borax as a thickener. The soap I would be interested in making would just be a plain 100% coconut oil liquid soap, 0% SF for cleaning and dishes and such. Nothing fancy. Colour and clarity aren't a concern, but it would be nice if it weren't completely watery, which I understand it would be if it were just a KOH soap? Would it help the thickness to mix NaOH and KOH, say at 50/50?

Perhaps I shouldn't even be asking these questions yet as I still have a lot to read up on about liquid soap. I have bought the book called "Making Natural Liquid Soaps" by C. Failor, but I really haven't had time to read it yet. It's planting season, so I'm short on time these days.

 

[Susie]

Please note that Catherine Failor wrote those books quite a while ago. She is certainly an expert, however, we have lye calculators now that will account for 90% KOH purity and do not need to neutralize any longer. So, my very strong advice is to take her oil amounts and enter them into a good lye calculator and not try to complicate things over much.

On the SBM Advanced calculator, just ignore the alcohol, glycerin, etc areas. Those are not required ingredients or steps.

 

[Tienne]

That sounds great. That'll just make things a whole lot easier with a lot less to worry about. Thank you for the good advice. It's much appreciated!

 

[heather s]

Such great input! I love these boards

 

[Susie]

I would also at least use 1% superfat if you are not going to be wearing gloves to wash those dishes. 0% superfat tends to be VERY drying. But, if you find it is too drying, don't throw it away. Just make another batch with 2% superfat and mix equal parts together. That is the beauty of liquid soaps.

Also, get into the habit now of either making very small batches, or storing half of your paste undiluted. This gives you less chance of the soap growing ickies(molds and bacterias) and more options to blend soaps together.(But then I am allergic to many preservatives, so I use none.) I have even taken to storing paste in 4 oz portions to make it easier to blend soaps without having too much to deal with at one time. I write the recipe and notes right on the Ziploc bag.

 

[heather s]

Awesome idea for writing notes right on the ziplock! I am letting it sit for another week then going to test it out. If it's still too thin I was going to make another batch of paste to add. Upping the superfat by a percent or two is a great idea!

 

[max_ime]

what about agar agar for thickening? I never tried but it might work. I recently made a 62% OO KOH LS soap it is clear at 6% SF. I wonder if it will get to separate over time, so far it's clear and 4 days have past. What's the highest discount you've made without it being cloudy or separate?