The (overly) Cartesian Soaper: Palmitic vs Stearic Question

[Orla]

Yes, I was completely off-track. I had (SOAP B) Lauric 8/myristic 3/ Palmitic 5/ Stearic 21, Oleic 45/ Linoleic 4. (that was SFH0 38%/Shea 25%; Coco 17, Castor 10 and Soy 10. Aloe juice instead of water, sugar 5% and CA 3%. I was hoping they would compensate for the low coco in bubbles! This soap, Soap B, takes ages to come into its own and that's ok, and it's very gentle (in my view), and certainly bubbles.

However, an older recipe (SOAP A) with OO 38, Sunflower (ordinary) 13, Castor 7 Coco 17, Shea 15 and Soy 10 (with the same additives) gives more bubbles more quickly. These photos are after 10 seconds. The first photo is soap B and the second soap A. I didn't take photos of 20 seconds in, but with soap A bubbles are just all over the place! whereas soap B also has far more bubbles but they

have all decreased in size (to very small altogether) and it is very creamy. So I have deduced from all of that that I need to up my palmitic to get it near to stearic and also up my Linoleic...

 

[Orla]

sorry I don't know why both photos came up twice. Nor why they are in the middle of the sentence!!!

 

[Dawni]

So I have deduced from all of that that I need to up my palmitic to get it near to stearic and also up my Linoleic...

Interesting.. I've never thought of it that way

 

[Orla]

Did you not Dawni?!! Because I just looked at your vegan recipes on the calculator and I see that your palmitic and stearic are always neck and neck and you flirt with the limits on linoleic also. So if you are happy with those recipes that's further evidence in favour of the theory...

 

[Dawni]

Haha I keep forgetting those are public but have at em if you feel like experimenting lol

I do like em, and sell some of those soaps, in fact. I did flirt around with many things for more than a year before doing so. The most surprising of those maybe is the high RBO soap.

I did look at the numbers, but just to make sure they don't go above the line of what I learned isn't ideal anymore. Other than that I did not look at the numbers thinking of lather. Like I said, very interesting your deduction. I want to look at my numbers now just to check lol

 

[KiwiMoose]

Did you not Dawni?!! Because I just looked at your vegan recipes on the calculator and I see that your palmitic and stearic are always neck and neck and you flirt with the limits on linoleic also. So if you are happy with those recipes that's further evidence in favour of the theory...

Dawni is known for her flirting ;-)

 

[Orla]

Haha I keep forgetting those are public but have at em if you feel like experimenting lol

Yes Dawni, they are up there! I actually like tinkering around in my own groove!!! However, just for the discussion, I think this needs to be said. Olive oil has a bad rap with some soapers on this forum as I've seen, but OO does have a good palmitic contribution to make. And my suspicion is that the OO available - at reasonable prices for soapers - in the US has very little in common with the OO available in Europe. I've seen other posts on it often coming in adulterated form. What I'm driving at is that I have a hard time believing that anyone using French OO (for example) would actually find it too OOy or something. That seems difficult for me to imagine. I don't think it's drying at all... So OO's bad rap may be slightly unjust ...

 

[Dawni]

What I'm driving at is that I have a hard time believing that anyone using French OO (for example) would actually find it too OOy or something. That seems difficult for me to imagine. I don't think it's drying at all... So OO's bad rap may be slightly unjust ...

You could be right. I have a few things planned with olive oil I found from a Syrian supplier, not the supermarket, just coz I want to see the difference. But with what I'm able to source easily, which is from the supermarket, olive oil just isn't working for me hence the decision to switch to RBO.

But yes, olive oil, does contribute to many factors in soap, which is why its used a lot, even here. If you got access to the good kind, lucky you lol. @penelopejane uses olive oil a lot, too so what she gets there is probably the good kind, too.

 

[SoapSisters]

Bear in mind that we had a long discussion about how soy wax was not calculated correcting in the soap calculators - it's not as high in stearic as we have been led to believe.

I think it depends on which soy wax you're using. The specification sheet that came with my soy wax - bought locally but imported from Germany - lists stearic at 88 and palmitic at 10. That's very close to SoapMakingFriend's fatty acid profile for soy wax as stearic 87 and palmitic 11.

 

[earlene]

Which soy wax are you using and which setting for Soy Wax are you using on the lye calculator? 27.5% hydrogenated, fully hydrogenated, or a custom oil setting such as Mobjack Bay discussed (see next paragraph)?

I use GW415 (Golden Wax) soy, I entered the numbers into soapmaking friend as a custom oil using Mobjack Bay's information from this thread. If that is what you use and do, it will change your numbers somewhat or a lot, depending on which soy wax in the calculator you are starting out with. Another thread on the topic here.

Not meaning to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but it could be important since it changes both palmitic & stearic significantly. And I find that soy wax soap is not anywhere near as hard or long lasting as I expected it to be based on the numbers indicated in the "fully hydrogenated soy wax" setting. Even with the 27.5% hydrogenated option, I still found it didn't seem to give me what I expected from the numbers. Since making soap with the newly added custom oil GW415, I am still unsure what to expect, because I have not yet done a comparison test, nor even designed a comparison test in order to come to any conclusions about what this means to me in my soapmaking. For me, this still needs further follow-up. During the time those threads were current, my internet access was sketchy at best, so I'm way behind on coming up to speed on the soy wax numbers thing.

 

[Dawni]

Eh.. I forgot about that long discussion when I entered the above recipe in the calc. I should go revisit.

I agree with you though @earlene, the resulting soap if using fully hydrogenated soybean oil in the calculators is hard enough, but not as hard as I thought it should be given the numbers it shows.

I have two other recipes, one with lard and one with 45% butters, that are harder and last longer, but of course the downside is one isn't vegan (not a downside for me though lol) and one takes long to cure. I'm thinking sustainable palm is another option if making vegan soap....

 

[Orla]

Hi Earlene, yes, I read through ALL those soya wax discussions! I buy mine from Latitude nature (France). I suspect it may be the same supplier as Soapsisters mentions: I seem to remember mention of a German source. It's 100% soya, European sourced and so no OGM. They are candle suppliers more generally so I had several exchanges with them (one to complain about The Soapery charging less for the product and for shipping (and from England to France). They told me that the soapery buys from Cargill's in the US (and so OGM). So typically, they give info for candlemakers, but the SAP index for KOH is the same as that given by Soapmakingfriend (190 mg KOH). I've sent them a message to ask for the fatty acid profile, but I might be pushing my luck as I ask a lot of questions for a small customer!! I think it gives a very hard soap, but I suppose I don't have much to compare with. I'd just say that it's certainly hard enough and takes three months really to start performing properly (with bubbles I mean). My hunch is that its figures (if they give them to me) will be very much those of Soapmakingfriend. Sorry, I see you are in the US so this is not very relevant for you...

 

[SoapSisters]

Hi Earlene, yes, I read through ALL those soya wax discussions! I buy mine from Latitude nature (France). I suspect it may be the same supplier as Soapsisters mentions: I seem to remember mention of a German source. It's 100% soya, European sourced and so no OGM.

The supplier of my soy wax is Gustav Heess.
Vegetable oils & fats | Gustav Heess
If this is your supplier, the website makes it possible to "request specification".

 

[Dawni]

The supplier of my soy wax is Gustav Heess.
Vegetable oils & fats | Gustav Heess
If this is your supplier, the website makes it possible to "request specification".

I followed the link coz I'm curious.. Wow, they have a lot of info on that site. Reading through some of it now.

 

[Orla]

Dawni, I don't know how you are reading through it as you have to request the detailed breakdown!!! I've sent a message requesting the specs! Yes, the site is wild, no?!!!
Thanks Soapsisters!!!

 

[Dawni]

Dawni, I don't know how you are reading through it as you have to request the detailed breakdown!!! I've sent a message requesting the specs! Yes, the site is wild, no?!!!
Thanks Soapsisters!!!

No not the specs, just the tidbits of info, like the short history blurbs n such hehehe

 

[KiwiMoose]

Haha I keep forgetting those are public but have at em if you feel like experimenting lol

I hate that the default is set to public. I have to remember to change it to private.

 

[earlene]

Hi Earlene, yes, I read through ALL those soya wax discussions! I buy mine from Latitude nature (France). I suspect it may be the same supplier as Soapsisters mentions: I seem to remember mention of a German source. It's 100% soya, European sourced and so no OGM. They are candle suppliers more generally so I had several exchanges with them (one to complain about The Soapery charging less for the product and for shipping (and from England to France). They told me that the soapery buys from Cargill's in the US (and so OGM). So typically, they give info for candlemakers, but the SAP index for KOH is the same as that given by Soapmakingfriend (190 mg KOH). I've sent them a message to ask for the fatty acid profile, but I might be pushing my luck as I ask a lot of questions for a small customer!! I think it gives a very hard soap, but I suppose I don't have much to compare with. I'd just say that it's certainly hard enough and takes three months really to start performing properly (with bubbles I mean). My hunch is that its figures (if they give them to me) will be very much those of Soapmakingfriend. Sorry, I see you are in the US so this is not very relevant for you...

Our sources in the US are mostly candle suppliers as well. It seems they are not particularly interested in addressing the soap making industry, probably because it's only the little guys like us who seem to use it in soap. If large commercial soap making companies started showing an interest, I am pretty sure they'd start testing and providing that info. But since it's primarily used in products that don't rely on the data we rely on, they won't be spending the money required to obtain SAP values and Fatty Acid Profiles.

 

[SeaSuds]

I'll just have to take your word for it that I won't have a disaster on my hands with the 2% SF, but I'm jumping!!!

Don't jump until you have checked that a 2% SF is acceptable for EU Safety Standards! I think 3% is the minimum

 

[Orla]

wow Earlene, prompted by your remark, I got on to Latitude nature for the info. How right you were!!! FAR LESS STEARIC than what the calculator was giving me...!!! Thank you for pointing that out... I'd seen the discussion on that subject but zapped it apparently. THANK YOU
So is for SOGWAX40

C12:0 Laurique % 0,00 1,00 ISO 12966

C14:0 Myristique % 0,00 1,00 ISO 12966

C16:0 Palmitique % 9,00 14,00 ISO 12966

C18:0 Esteárico % 22,00 30,00 ISO 12966

C18:1 Oleico % 52,00 64,00 ISO 12966

C18:2 Linoléique % 0,00 3,00 ISO 12966

C18:3 Linolénique % 0,00 0,50 ISO 12966