The old superfat after trace CP argument

[Primrose]

Ok so I may be relatively new to soapmaking, but I've read multiple times on here about how in CP method you cannot choose which oil becomes your superfat oil. I totally agree with this. The science of saponification supports this.

The admin of a fb soap group I am in, is insisting that you can, by adding the oil after your soap reaches trace. And states that there are noticeable differences in the end product of superfat added at trace vs added at the beginning.

Am I going crazy?

I'm considering making a couple of batches using each method, and doing a blind test on family/friends to try to test this theory out.

 

[Obsidian]

No, you aren't crazy. I would think this person sees a difference because they think there should be one.
I bet if they bling tested someone else's soap, the difference wouldn't be obvious.

It's like the member here who did a blind test with milk soaps. The testers, which I was one of, seen no or little difference.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Dr Kevin Dunn actually analysed two soaps to compare them and, chemically speaking, they were the same.

Ask her this: if cp superfatting works then at trace all or most of the lye must have reacted with the oils. And yet saponification can take 24 hours. So it's mostly done in 30 minutes but still needs 24 hours? Per-lease!

 

[Susie]

I know exactly who it is. Just remember that you must be careful who you believe. Test everything. Give/Send your soap out to people without telling them what you did. Ask them if they can tell a difference between soap 1 and soap 2.

 

[Primrose]

That's exactly what I said EG! Then someone else chimes in with "I don't believe saponification takes 24hrs anyway. Some recipes are hard enough to unmould within 5hrs. One I made the other day was rock hard after two hours!"

I stated I don't think hardening has any correlation with saponification.

Is there any published data on the time it takes for various oils to saponify?

 

[Saponificarian]

It amuses me when people postulate theories and think saying it repeatedly and arguing it into the next century make those theories true even when there are hard facts that disprove their theories. You can’t add oils at trace and think it won’t saponify.

Like lye will just look at the oil added at trace and say ‘Hey Avocado oil, you came late to the party, ain’t gonna saponify you’ :mrgreen:

Lye doesn’t discriminate and to be honest I don’t think the oils in the Superfat is what make a soap mild or non stripping. I think it has more to do with your recipe and not so much superfat. I could be wrong of course but this is solely on my experience.

 

[Kamahido]

It amuses me when people postulate theories and think saying it repeatedly and arguing it into the next century make those theories true even when there are hard facts that disprove their theories. You can’t add oils at trace and think it won’t saponify.

Like lye will just look at the oil added at trace and say ‘Hey Avocado oil, you came late to the party, ain’t gonna saponify you’ :mrgreen:

Lye doesn’t discriminate and to be honest I don’t think the oils in the Superfat is what make a soap mild or non stripping. I think it has more to do with your recipe and not so much superfat. I could be wrong of course but this is solely on my experience.

The mindset of saying it often and saying it loud does indeed seem to be quite prevalent in today's society. Here is an example...

https://www.facebook.com/FlatEarthToday/

 

[SudsanSoaps]

If I've understood speculation correctly before. Then with all the lye rearranging itself during cure. With HP soap adding an oil after cook doesn't guarantee that it's really the superfat.

 

[Kittish]

If I've understood speculation correctly before. Then with all the lye rearranging itself during cure. With HP soap adding an oil after cook doesn't guarantee that it's really the superfat.

With HP, yes it does, because you use applied heat to hurry saponification, so it's complete by the time you add your superfat oil. With CP, it's not done yet when you pour the soap into the mold, so adding additional oil at trace isn't going to guarantee that that particular oil is your superfat.

Cure is not 'lye rearranging itself', it's the soap crystals rearranging themselves, with the larger crystals forming arrays and the smaller ones in the tiny bit of water that stays in the bar forming a matrix around the larger crystals.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

With HP, yes it does, because you use applied heat to hurry saponification, so it's complete by the time you add your superfat oil. With CP, it's not done yet when you pour the soap into the mold, so adding additional oil at trace isn't going to guarantee that that particular oil is your superfat.

Cure is not 'lye rearranging itself', it's the soap crystals rearranging themselves, with the larger crystals forming arrays and the smaller ones in the tiny bit of water that stays in the bar forming a matrix around the larger crystals.

This is also something that has been chemically studied - even a very old soap is not actually totally solid and the bonds are not set in stone. Over time, what we think of a finished soap will change in how it is made up, which oils are saponified, even. To what extent and over what time period......? Makes it less worrisome than trying it with cp

 

[Saranac]

With HP, yes it does, because you use applied heat to hurry saponification, so it's complete by the time you add your superfat oil. With CP, it's not done yet when you pour the soap into the mold, so adding additional oil at trace isn't going to guarantee that that particular oil is your superfat.

Cure is not 'lye rearranging itself', it's the soap crystals rearranging themselves, with the larger crystals forming arrays and the smaller ones in the tiny bit of water that stays in the bar forming a matrix around the larger crystals.

I think what SudsanSoaps is referring to is that the chemical reactions are not static. In other words, if you HP a 100% lard bar, then after saponification is complete, SF with shea butter, you won't end up with just shea butter as your SF. Over the course of time, you still end up with lard soap, shea butter soap, and a various mix of unsaponified fatty acids (from all sources). Chemistry likes to achieve an equilibrium.

Of course, I'm not a chemist, so I'm most likely wrong or have overly simplified this, but it is what I understand is happening in a bar of soap.

 

[Kittish]

I think what SudsanSoaps is referring to is that the chemical reactions are not static. In other words, if you HP a 100% lard bar, then after saponification is complete, SF with shea butter, you won't end up with just shea butter as your SF. Over the course of time, you still end up with lard soap, shea butter soap, and a various mix of unsaponified fatty acids (from all sources). Chemistry likes to achieve an equilibrium.

Of course, I'm not a chemist, so I'm most likely wrong or have overly simplified this, but it is what I understand is happening in a bar of soap.

But that is not correct. In hot process, saponification is DONE by the time you add additional fat. There is no more free lye to react with the new fat being introduced.

Your statement is basically correct when talking about cold process though, saponification takes up to several days to complete if you don't add heat to hurry the process along, so you can't pick and choose what oils the lye reacts with.

 

[IrishLass]

But that is not correct. In hot process, saponification is DONE by the time you add additional fat. There is no more free lye to react with the new fat being introduced.

Your statement is basically correct when talking about cold process though, saponification takes up to several days to complete if you don't add heat to hurry the process along, so you can't pick and choose what oils the lye reacts with.

If I understand all I've learned from DeeAnna properly, Saranac is actually correct. There's a lot more going on with the fatty acids inside a solid soap than meets the eye even after saponification is already completed. See this excellent explanation by DeeAnna in this link:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=634104&postcount=51. Because of what I've gleaned from her, I don't bother superfatting my HP soap after the cook.


IrishLass

 

[Saranac]

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=42021, post #5, specifically--

When we make soap, we're combining a weak acid with a strong base just as I've described. The resulting bar of soap is not a boringly static, unchanging block of stuff. Soap is a "colloid", meaning it's a complex structure of solid soap crystals surrounded by a film of water-based liquid. The chemistry going on in this colloid is constantly changing -- it's like a huge party where all kinds of microscopically tiny people are circulating around. Some people "hook up" with each other and some just cruise. Some may hook up, but later unhook, cruise for awhile, and hook up with someone different.

Unless I'm completely misreading this, even a SF added after saponification in an HP soap is "fair game" to the NaOH.

EDITED: IL beat me to it!

 

[Kittish]

ETA: Ok, the second thread reference explained it better. I couldn't see where the first one had much to do with the subject at hand.

 

[Obsidian]

I don't see where either post has anything to do with SF. They both speak of soap molecules/crystals reacting with liquids and glycerin, they are what move around and change. Nowhere does it say anything about free oil (sf) bonding or changing into soap.

Looks like we need Deeanna to explain science to us again

 

[Kittish]

I don't see where either post has anything to do with SF. They both speak of soap molecules/crystals reacting with liquids and glycerin, they are what move around and change. Nowhere does it say anything about free oil (sf) bonding or changing into soap.

Looks like we need Deeanna to explain science to us again

Don't feel bad. I had to read it all twice to get it. Here is where it's mentioned:

When we make soap, we're combining a weak acid with a strong base just as I've described. The resulting bar of soap is not a boringly static, unchanging block of stuff. Soap is a "colloid", meaning it's a complex structure of solid soap crystals surrounded by a film of water-based liquid. The chemistry going on in this colloid is constantly changing -- it's like a huge party where all kinds of microscopically tiny people are circulating around. Some people "hook up" with each other and some just cruise. Some may hook up, but later unhook, cruise for awhile, and hook up with someone different.

In chemistry terms, all this partying and circulating is called a "dynamic equilibrium". Obviously, many soap particles are created when the fatty acids and the sodium ions "hook up" more or less permanently to form the chemically neutral molecules we call soap. But there are also the chemical loners who circulate in the watery liquid inside the soap structure -- these include some sodium ions (Na+), some fatty acid ions (Ste- and others), and the H+ and OH- ions released by the lye and the fatty acids.

 

[Susie]

Thank you for finding that post of DeeAnna's! I have been hunting it for three months!

 

[IrishLass]

Thank you for finding that post of DeeAnna's! I have been hunting it for three months!

It's saved in my documents on my computer in my special 'DeeAnna File'. :mrgreen:


IrishLass

 

[MissLunaB]

*raises hand* ok I'm going to ask for for all of the other newbies around here, other than acting as a buffer to make sure that the lye has something to eat and not make lye heavy soap what is the point in adding oil after cook in hot process or adding oil at trace? Also how would you super fat a soap (with a specific oil) before you SB everything? I just a bit loss :/