Syndet shampoo bar recipe help needed

[Gaisy59]

Hi @Gaisy59, I would suggest double checking the usage rate for this, because I think it is supposed to be 0.5% not 0.05%.

Thanks so much Ashleigh! It is supposed to be 0.5%! I am so glad I have asked for help I would have totally missed that.

 

[Ashleigh]

You're very welcome! So easy to miss when working with so many ingredients and small numbers.

Your post reminded me that I have some Kokum butter to use and I've been wanting to try a syndet bar again so this was good timing. I based my first one off of swift craft monkey's recipe with some small tweaks and it didn't hold up well so I've wanted to give it another shot.

 

[Gaisy59]

@Ashleigh i bought swift craft monkey’s shampoo bar book because i had no idea where to start. It was very informative. I am trying to work it for my curly dry hair and as for something i would like to use. Im hoping this will work and not need too much tweaking. This forum has already been helpful regarding the sodium lactate and of course you found my math error lol.

Good luck with your formulation!

 

[Dahila]

add more slsa, it looks good , and lower the cB a bit Amphosol I used the Varisoft too (high ph) so you need to ajust it, I can not see the difference after washing both are good but BMTS 50 is cheaper and it never failed me . I bought Susans book or books , to support her not to use it, . Whatever I know I learned it following her blog, from very beginning. I have " Formulating Facial products" and I was using it a lot but not anymore. I use info I put into soapmaker 3 , each of the ingredients i have inci name, and usage rates and what kind of ie emulsifier it is anoninc katonic non inonic
I believe Susan deserve our support, I am also subscriber on her blog .

 

[Gaisy59]

Hi Dahila. You are right about the varisoft. I looked it up and it is too finicky for a newbie like me. Apparently you have to bring down the ph to 5 for it to work. So yes I will stick with the btms. I see where you are going with the Amphosol. You did say Susans bars were too soft so I will decrease the amphosol to 18% and the SLSa will increase to 30%. Both good surfactants but increase the dry and decrease the wet (wasn’t thinking). Do you think that will be enough?

 

[Gaisy59]

Also I was thinking of using grapefruit, tea tree and rosemary for the scent. I love the smell of grapefruit

 

[Dahila]

I use combination of rosemary, lemon and cedarwood, Even using Bmts 50 (6ph) I do adjust to 4.68 ph, I am not happy with higher, 5 is fine but if bmts and slasa is 6 it is hard to have lower ph. Many people do not adjust and they are fine, I do adjust, a lot of fun with it I love measuring, making solutions and excetera
Varisoft is nice but it drifts up to 9 ph, very high

 

[Dawni]

@Dahila how do you test for ph in syndet bars? Do test strips work? I know they're not very reliable for soap... Or do you have a gadget for testing ph?

 

[Gaisy59]

I will do a newbie answer...Susan from Swift Craft Monkey has a gadget and a system. This is a whole process which is why I wanted to stay with products that are in the 5-7 ph range. Let's see what Dahila does.

 

[Dahila]

I do not believe in strips , I use ph meter and yes I test each batch, However I had a plastic strips from Formulator Store (I think that's the name) and they are incredible accurate when ph is 4.6 they show 5 , which surprise me every time I use them, I use them to check how low is ph then the meter.
Susan explains so well how to adjust it and how to measure, You could use strips just for general information
link to good strips, They costed so much cause I am in Canada, but they are the best I have . Link: https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/pH-Fix-Indicator-Strips-10-Pack-p/fssd22020.htm
you need to make solution 5grams of syndet bar 45 of distilled water then measure it, I use ph meter 5 g of syndet 95 g of DW. easy peasy

 

[Dawni]

Thank you @Dahila

 

[DeeAnna]

The pH Fix strips are manufactured by Machery Nagel and they do have a decent reputation. Look around online or locally for the Machery Nagel name if you don't want to or can't buy from Dahlia's source. Even the M-N strips are inaccurate if a person doesn't use them correctly -- Dahlia's advice about that is spot on too.

 

[Dahila]

Thank you DeeAnna I just put it in my wish list in amazon, They are so expensive is $56 CAD for 100 strips

 

[amd]

*Disclaimer: I am not an expert by any means, but I've been researching syndet shampoo bars very diligently for almost 18 months now. I've made a few different recipes as well.*

Maybe I will try Humblebee instead, but from what I can see she hasn’t developed anything for dry hair.

I have dry hair, prone to being frizzy, and have been using the recently published clay bar for two weeks now. I subbed bentonite clay because I had no rhassoul. It's amazing! I do have to use a light conditioner with this one though. I love this one so much, I shared a bar with my mom.
https://www.humblebeeandme.com/chocolate-rhassoul-shampoo-bars/

Do you not use sodium lactaid? It is my understanding that it helps harden the bar.

The SL causes the product to get a lot softer in humid weather. If it works well for her and other people, that's all good, but I'm getting better results without it.

I agree with DeeAnna on this one too! @DeeAnna I meant to get back to you regarding a discussion we had about the WSP recipes using SL and how the bars stood up to my lack of air conditioning in the summer. Well, this summer we only had about a week where the humidity was high enough to make the house uncomfortable. The WSP bars turned to mush. I made a new batch subbing out the SL for stearic acid. We'll see how those do next summer

Do you recommend I should get her hair care book?

I don't know about SCM's book, but I will tell you to save your money and NOT buy the Lisa Lise book. I have not been able to make a single recipe from that book yet because so many of the ingredients are either hard to find or expensive. You don't dare use substitutions because she uses hurdle method to make the bars self-preserving. Just my two cents.

Wow it seems I have fallen down a never ending hole with this project.

Welcome to my world!

There's a few recipes I have tried that I really like:
WSP recipes https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/Handmade-Magazine/12492/Handmade.aspx#p=24
I have made all four of the recipes and I liked them all, although they don't give alot of luxurious suds like you see with other shampoo bars. My only complaint with these was that they are not good for colored hair, I'm not sure why as the recipes are sulfate free. The moisturizing bar seems to be the most popular, I have 3 customers who will have me do custom orders of the moisturizing bar - one of those customers has naturally curly hair. See my note to DeeAnna above regarding subbing out the sodium lactate.

DIY Bath & Body https://www.etsy.com/listing/630191706/diy-solid-shampoo-bars-sci-version-2?ref=shop_home_feat_1
Their recipe calls for argan oil, but I hate to use up my precious argan oil in a wash off product, so I subbed with avocado oil. My husband has really oily skin and hair, and this recipe worked well for his hair, I have drier coarser hair and most days I can go without conditioning, so I think this recipe really covers a lot of hair types. It gives the gorgeous sudsy lather. I used this one for a solid month, until I made the clay bar.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thanks all - interesting thread. I fell down this rabbit hole some time ago and was overwhelmed so climbed back out. I'm feeling a bit tempted to fall back in again now!

 

[justjacqui]

I have based my shampoo bars off Swifts original formula guidelines and quite like them. I don't find them soft at all. I don't add any butters (I just make up the difference with some extra SCI). I use 65% solid surfactants (SCI and SLSa) and 26% Cocoamidopropyl betaine, with BTMS, Cetearyl Alcohol, Fragrance, Oat Proteins and Preservative making up the remainder. They work best if you leave them a few days before using.

 

[Gaisy59]

@amd welcome to my rabbit hole lol. It's crazy isn't it! I am a subscriber to both SCM and Humblebee because they deserve my support. All the amazing stuff they try is fantastic! I saw Marie's shampoo bar but that was before I did all my research. I know a very little bit more now and will go back and review...thanks for that.

And yes I am going to steer clear of SL. I am sooo glad I asked for help because everyone has said the same thing...it sucks in water. Kind of weird that Susan would use it, but everything works differently for everybody.

Thank you for those links. I was just going to put in my order when these showed up. I am going to review them for sure. I too don't know why colored hair would be affected. Everything I have read so far says one thing...syndet shampoo bars do not affect color.

All righty, back into the hole lol

 

[Gaisy59]

I have based my shampoo bars off Swifts original formula guidelines and quite like them. I don't find them soft at all. I don't add any butters (I just make up the difference with some extra SCI). I use 65% solid surfactants (SCI and SLSa) and 26% Cocoamidopropyl betaine, with BTMS, Cetearyl Alcohol, Fragrance, Oat Proteins and Preservative making up the remainder. They work best if you leave them a few days before using.

Hey justjacqui my daughter is touring Australia as we chat. So as far as I can see you have a similar recipe to the one I compiled except for the Kokum butter. My understanding is that Jojoba, Kokum etc make the hair feel good so why have you left it out of your formula?? Don't get me wrong I am all for keeping it simple, but what is your reasoning? Have you tried with and without?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Kind of weird that Susan would use it, but everything works differently for everybody...."

I think that's it in a nutshell. Sodium lactate works for her. It doesn't necessarily work for other people. Some people make a pressed "bath bomb" type of bar; Susan melts her ingredients (as do I).

I think the common ground for everyone making syndet shampoo bars is a very high % of solid surfactants bound together with a minimum of liquids, usually in the form of liquid surfactants.

Ideally there will be two or more surfactants to build in mildness. A small % of BTMS or its generic equivalent to add hardness and also build in mildness. Preservative.

Optional -- Proteins, humectants, a thickener such as stearic acid or cetyl alcohol, solid fats, silicones or equivalent, fragrance, color. A pH adjuster if the surfactants have a high pH.

My current bars don't have any added solid fats either, @Gaisy59. I've made bars with and without. I think my hair combs out a little easier if my bars contain a small % of any kind of solid fat, but I don't think it's an absolute necessity. I think I'd be more reluctant to remove the BTMS from my formulation.

I've used tallow, coconut oil, babassu and they all work fine, but the higher the melt point the better so the bars stay as firm as possible. I don't think liquid fats would work well in my shampoo bars, no matter how nice I think jojoba is. But maybe that works for you.

 

[Gaisy59]

"...Kind of weird that Susan would use it, but everything works differently for everybody...."

I think that's it in a nutshell. Sodium lactate works for her. It doesn't necessarily work for other people. Some people make a pressed "bath bomb" type of bar; Susan melts her ingredients (as do I).

I think the common ground for everyone making syndet shampoo bars is a very high % of solid surfactants bound together with a minimum of liquids, usually in the form of liquid surfactants.

Ideally there will be two or more surfactants to build in mildness. A small % of BTMS or its generic equivalent to add hardness and also build in mildness. Preservative.

Optional -- Proteins, humectants, a thickener such as stearic acid or cetyl alcohol, solid fats, silicones or equivalent, fragrance, color. A pH adjuster if the surfactants have a high pH.

My current bars don't have any added solid fats either, @Gaisy59. I've made bars with and without. I think my hair combs out a little easier if my bars contain a small % of any kind of solid fat, but I don't think it's an absolute necessity. I think I'd be more reluctant to remove the BTMS from my formulation.

I've used tallow, coconut oil, babassu and they all work fine, but the higher the melt point the better so the bars stay as firm as possible. I don't think liquid fats would work well in my shampoo bars, no matter how nice I think jojoba is. But maybe that works for you.

Thanks DeeAnna so far I have my solid and liquid surfactants, my BTMS 50, a thickener, humectant and cetyl alcohol. Perhaps I will leave the jojoba oil out. I was going to use kokum butter but that is adding an expense and two of you so far do not use any butters. I will omit the 10% butter and up the SCI, SLSa and a touch of the BTMS-50.

My next step would be to make a conditioner bar so perhaps I could use kokum butter there. But first things first. So what I can see from all of the above is that I am on the right track.