Superfatting LS help? (combining recipes)

[nsmar4211]

Someone help an overworked brain out.

I found a dual lye recipe that worked well, but it's too drying. I also did the creamy recipe so generously provided here, which uses Meadowfoam oil and PS80 to superfat at dilution-I like the way it feels but I'd like to try a clear version (yep, no shea or etc will be allowed to be used).

If I wanted to take the superfat idea from the creamy recipe and apply it to the dual lye one, would I change anything in the dual lye recipe? Or is superfatting just superfatting no matter the recipe (assuming it is not built into the calc's)? In other words, is adding the meadowfoam oil and its PS80 friend going to have weird results/make it not clear anymore/grow trees?

I realize I could just take out 2oz of the clear dual lye one and test this theory, but if someone has already had a "don't do this" moment because in three months the soap turns into a gremlin it would save me three months .

And I thought bar soap was confusing LOL

 

[cmzaha]

You have actually made 2 different types of soap. The Creamy posted by IrishLass is a true Liquid Soap using only KOH. The dual lye recipe you are talking about is a cream soap or shave soap recipe that cannot be diluted to make Liquid soap, but can be superfatted like any hp or cp soap. Cream soaps are usually superfatted with stearic acid. Dual Lye soap is basically a softer soap, which varies texture with the amount of stearic acid present and the percentage of koh:NaOH. I am assuming you want a clear LS soap so you need to stick to KOH only. You can play with the superfatting oils and PS80 and see what you get, but superfatting LS is always risky if you want a clear soap. I have a very mild recipe I use for LS and do a 0 superfat with non added after the fact. It is always a pretty clear amber, like the glycerin method soap IL has posted.

On the other hand if I missed something here and someone can certainly correct me, I simply have never seen or made a dual lye LS. Just not sure how you made a cream into a clear liquid soap. LOL, heading to the work space to dilute down some cream soap...

 

[DeeAnna]

Carolyn -- Some soapers are making liquid soaps that use a small % of NaOH along with KOH. (I see this trend on FaceBook mostly.) The NaOH supposedly helps to make the diluted LS somewhat thicker. I've not tried it, but the soapers who have seem to get mixed results. Some say they like it, and others don't see the point.

I think the choice of fats has more to do with the clarity of the soap rather than whether you use KOH only or use a blend of both lyes.

If the combined % of stearic and palmitic is low enough, the soap should be more like a liquid soap rather than a cream/shave soap, although the appearance will vary from clear to opaque. I think the tipping point between a recipe that works better as a liquid soap vs a recipe that is more like cream soap is somewhere around 35% give or take. Above that you get more of a cream or shave type soap. Below that, you get more of a "normal" liquid soap.

As far as superfatting a LS using PS80 to solubilize the fat -- my opinion is this should give a clear result if you start with a clear soap and a clear fat and you use enough PS80 to do the trick. I've made blends of essential oils, ethyl alcohol, water, and PS80 that are crystal clear. If you don't use enough polysorbate, however, the mixture can be milky and even separate. Getting the right amount of PS is the key. I have some ready-to-use LS made with Irish Lass' clear LS recipe. I confess I'm curious about this superfatting idea in a clear LS now that Nsmarr has asked the question. I'll give it a try today. More later....

 

[cmzaha]

Carolyn -- Some soapers are making liquid soaps that use a small % of NaOH along with KOH. (I see this trend on FaceBook mostly.) The NaOH supposedly helps to make the diluted LS somewhat thicker. I've not tried it, but the soapers who have seem to get mixed results. Some say they like it, and others don't see the point.

I think the choice of fats has more to do with the clarity of the soap rather than whether you use KOH only or use a blend of both lyes.

If the combined % of stearic and palmitic is low enough, the soap should be more like a liquid soap rather than a cream/shave soap, although the appearance will vary from clear to opaque. I think the tipping point between a recipe that works better as a liquid soap vs a recipe that is more like cream soap is somewhere around 35% give or take. Above that you get more of a cream or shave type soap. Below that, you get more of a "normal" liquid soap.

As far as superfatting a LS using PS80 to solubilize the fat -- my opinion is this should give a clear result if you start with a clear soap and a clear fat and you use enough PS80 to do the trick. I've made blends of essential oils, ethyl alcohol, water, and PS80 that are crystal clear. If you don't use enough polysorbate, however, the mixture can be milky and even separate. Getting the right amount of PS is the key. I have some ready-to-use LS made with Irish Lass' clear LS recipe. I confess I'm curious about this superfatting idea in a clear LS now that Nsmarr has asked the question. I'll give it a try today. More later....

Thankyou DeeAnna, I have not seen the dual lye method. LOL, guess I need to venture out more...I do not go by much I see on Facebook and do not visit FB soap groups much. Going to dilute some of my LS paste and also try different oils. I have really never superfatted LS after dilution

 

[DeeAnna]

Oh, Carolyn -- the FB groups will make you grit your teeth. Any good advice, interesting techniques, and insight shared on FB will be there for one day and gone the next, buried in the waves of silliness that keep crashing in. I have learned to quietly watch the parade go by, pick out the useful tidbits, and not say much about the rest.

 

[Susie]

Oh, Carolyn -- the FB groups will make you grit your teeth. Any good advice, interesting techniques, and insight shared on FB will be there for one day and gone the next, buried in the waves of silliness that keep crashing in. I have learned to quietly watch the parade go by, pick out the useful tidbits, and not say much about the rest.

^This! I occasionally feel I must clear up some misconception, but other than that, I take the, "Not my circus, not my monkeys." approach.

I have made liquid soap using up to 40% NaOH in a vain attempt to get thicker soap. I failed miserably. It just does not thicken unless you add some kind of thickener, or just use less water to dilute. Period.

I did, however, determine to my own satisfaction that clarity has more to do with oils, and superfat determined separation, so those experiments were not complete failures.

 

[cmzaha]

^^Good info Susie. I have to admit I do not get much time these days to experiment. With 90 yr old parents and one slipping in health, and added markets I have not much time to experiment.

 

[Susie]

Carolyn, you have my sympathy and my empathy. I took care of both of my parents for a few years before they passed away. Between them, my small children, and a full time job, I did not know what my name was most days.

 

[nsmar4211]

I feel your pain on the elderly relative...mine can still take care of themselves luckily so I just have some extra laundry at this point luckily.

I'd have to make the dual lye recipe as a single lye to tell you if it made it thicker that it would otherwise, but it has a good thickness as a dual lye (and yep, not a cream soap !). I was just looking for something that doesn't have as much drying to it, but I like the way the clear recipe looks in the bottle (yea I know, buy solid bottles LOL). The cream soap seems to leave a weird residue as it gets used on the sides of the bottle. I'm only two dilutions in so I can't really judge 100%....a

Been busy at work , schedule changes are tiring. I will try doing a meadowfoam superfat with ps80 this weekend!

I think what I'll do is ignore any recipe concerns and start at adding 1% meadowfoam and see if that's enough to help but still keep the clearness and not seperate.


I did drag out some liquid foaming handsoap I got from bath and body works...and it was drying too. I'm not a liquid soap user except dishsoap so maybe I had just forgotten what it feels like.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here's an update on my small experiments. I am still tinkering, but this is what I've found so far --

***

PS80 can solubilize only small amounts of fat in liquid soap. What I mean by "solubilize" is to make a water-clear non-separating mixture of Irish Lass' clear liquid soap, meadowfoam oil, and polysorbate 80.

At 3% PS80 and 0.1% meadowfoam oil, the mixture was cloudy.
At 6% PS80 and 0.1% MF, the mixture was water-clear after 1 1/2 days of sitting quietly. Before that, the mixture was translucent.

***

PS80 can emulsify larger amounts of fat. What I mean by "emulsify" is to make a cloudy or milky non-separating mixture of soap, MF oil, and PS80. So far--

At 13% PS80 and 2.5% MF, the mixture is cloudy and translucent and has not separated after 2 days of sitting quietly. I have to say ... that's a lot of PS80.
At 2.8% PS80 and 2.8% MF, the mixture is milky and opaque. It separated after 1 1/2 days of sitting quietly.

I am gradually adding more PS80 to the last mixture to find the dosage that creates a stable emulsion. I find myself wondering -- at what % PS80 is the LS still a liquid soap and not a synthetic detergent and soap blend?

***

Some other notes --

PS80 slightly thickens the liquid soap when added alone or with the extra superfat.
PS80 mixed by itself with LS results in a clear mixture.

***


I know my data are limited, but it doesn't look like PS80 is going to be able to let someone add any reasonable amount of extra superfat to a clear LS and still end up with a clear soap. But it may work to create an extra superfatted, stable LS if you don't mind the soap being opaque.

Another finding is my DH is an awfully good sport about the current crop of jars, bottles, stir sticks, and notes cluttering the kitchen counter.

 

[coffeetime]

Thank you, DeeAnna! I just came on here to research what happened to my liquid soap. I decided to try adding an extra 3% superfat with equal amounts of PS80 to try and it went opaque but did not separate. It was just a small amount of leftover paste, so it was 2.8g of almond oil and the same of PS80. I wasn't sure if it was the almond oil or something else. So I would have to add a lot of PS80 to get the soap back to clear then. Ok, I don't think I like that idea, but I will have to see how the LS feels on my hands. I left it to sit to see if it was going to separate but it's been 48 hours and it's still together.

 

[DeeAnna]

It may separate after some days -- at least that is what I am observing. (Yeah, I'm still messing with this!)

What is happening for me -- The diluted soap with added superfat and PS80 appears to be a consistent opaque mixture at first, then a white floating layer gradually forms, and the underlying mixture becomes more translucent.

As I add more PS80, stir gently, and wait the inevitable few days, less and less of the white "head" is forming as the PS80 content goes up. I'm up to 12 g PS80 + 3 g oil in 100 g diluted LS, and the head is almost gone. I expect 15 g PS80 will be the answer. That's a PS80 to oil ratio of 5:1. It may also be a clear or nearly clear solution, rather than an opaque emulsion.

When I use EOs in a water-alcohol room spray, I often end up with a 3:1 to 4:1 ratio of PS80 to EO to fully solubilize the EO. So this 5:1 ratio is not so far out of line.

With this much PS80, however, the LS is starting to look more like a soap-syndet product, not just soap. I think this is what some people have done to lower the pH of their LS -- added a bunch of PS80 (which isn't normally described as a synthetic detergent, but it is).

I haven't tested the lather to see if it has changed -- will do that when I get a stable mixture.

 

[nsmar4211]

*drags in*
I'm still working a billion hours (going on 10 days in a row wheeee) so haven't had a chance to play. Reading this with interest as that's a LOT of ps80.... thanks for continuing to experiement!

 

[nsmar4211]

Ok, finally got a day off (yea) so am making two batches. One is a 60/40 dual lye and one is a straight KOH. Both at 2% superfat, my lye is tested (supposedly) at 90% so I used that setting on Soapee calc. The dual lye keeps seperating and driving me batty so we'll see how that goes. Once the paste is done, I'll let it sit for aweek and then experiement time!

 

[coffeetime]

Update: My 1:1, 3% extra superfat GLS has now separated to form a ring of fat around the top of the bottle.

 

[Susie]

Update: My 1:1, 3% extra superfat GLS has now separated to form a ring of fat around the top of the bottle.

How much total superfat did you have?

Your first post on this thread said, "I decided to try adding an extra 3% superfat with equal amounts of PS80 to try and it went opaque but did not separate. It was just a small amount of leftover paste, so it was 2.8g of almond oil and the same of PS80. I wasn't sure if it was the almond oil or something else. So I would have to add a lot of PS80 to get the soap back to clear then."

 

[coffeetime]

Initially, the standard 3%, then I added an additional 3%.