Superfatting liquid soap - a question

[Smee]

Do I understand correctly that if I want to run a liquid soap recipe with
a superfat of 3-5% I don't need to be concerned about being lye heavy
and neutralizing? I don't care if it produces cloudy soap, just that it be
safe to use.

So, could I use soap-calc with KOH, 3% superfat and use the ingredient
weights as calculated in the chart?
(does that make sense I hope?)

 

[jcandleattic]

Do I understand correctly that if I want to run a liquid soap recipe with
a superfat of 3-5% I don't need to be concerned about being lye heavy
and neutralizing? I don't care if it produces cloudy soap, just that it be
safe to use.

So, could I use soap-calc with KOH, 3% superfat and use the ingredient
weights as calculated in the chart?
(does that make sense I hope?)

It depends on your method whether you have to neutralize or not.
I have done both water liquid soap method (and had to neutralize) and the glycerin liquid soap and did not have to neutralize.
But have only done 1 batch of each method and the water method was over 6 years ago and don't remember a whole lot about it other than I hated the process even way back then. LOL

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject will come and reply, but with the water method I *think* there is more to just superfatting as to why it needs neutralization. Not 100% on that however.

So in essence, I really didn't answer your question. LOL Sorry.

 

[lsg]

Here is a link with some information:

http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/making-liquid-soaps-crossposted-introductions-administrator

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

I have done both water liquid soap method (and had to neutralize) and the glycerin liquid soap and did not have to neutralize.

Just curious... did you notice a difference in the quality of your soap glycerin vs water for mixing the KOH? I've been sticking to glycerin given how friggin fast it happens but i'm concerned that maybe with water the soap may be less drying?

So in essence, I really didn't answer your question. LOL Sorry.

LOL!

 

[Smee]

Here is a link with some information:

http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/making-liquid-soaps-crossposted-introductions-administrator

Excellent explanations at SBM. Thank you! I haven't been there before.

Of course, I should have known it would be a tad more complicated than YES or NO. :smile:

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

Do I understand correctly that if I want to run a liquid soap recipe with
a superfat of 3-5% I don't need to be concerned about being lye heavy
and neutralizing? I don't care if it produces cloudy soap, just that it be
safe to use.

So, could I use soap-calc with KOH, 3% superfat and use the ingredient
weights as calculated in the chart?
(does that make sense I hope?)

Someone correct me if i'm wrong but..

There is superfatting and there is neutralizing and they are for different reasons.

Let's say you superfat a recipie at 3% and do not make any adjustments to the lye and just go with what the calculator tells you. The soapcalc only calculates enough lye to saponify without taking into account the impurities (5-10%) in KOH that can lead to unsaponified oils. (or am i wrong?)

So then using this scenario, if you superfat at 3%, cook your soap paste and it's still pretty dark pink, I would still add a very small amount of citric acid in the dilution stage after your paste has dissolved. Test and see if it is still pink. Add a little more and test again if it is. use very small amounts you can always add more:!: Do not set your goal to have test samples be completely clear because if you do, your soap PH may go too low and a number of things can go wrong: poor performance, premature rancidity and (immediately apparent) cloudy soap. Cloudy soap due to low PH is a bad thing vs cloudy soap due to too much oil. You need to know which one if these it is.

pH range: 8.0-9.8 (light pink to dark magenta)
This is the description of the 1% Phenolphthalein i got from amazon.
Dr. Bronner's soap PH is 8.9. so a light pink color will be produced when testing his soap.

If safety is your concern ignore all the factors at play except one: ph test equals dark pink? neutralize. It's safe when it's light pink. Just because it's pink doesn't mean there is unsaponified lye because soap is supposed to be alkaline even when 100% of the oils are saponified and a superfat is used.

 

[jcandleattic]

Just curious... did you notice a difference in the quality of your soap glycerin vs water for mixing the KOH? I've been sticking to glycerin given how friggin fast it happens but i'm concerned that maybe with water the soap may be less drying?


LOL!

My water method didn't really turn out but it was very drying.

The glycerin method I have found needs a good long 4-5 week cure just the same as bar soap for it to finish mellowing out. I now use mine in the shower as a shower gel and it's just as mild and conditioning as my bar soap. That was not true for the first 3 weeks of it's life...

 

[Smee]

I think you hit where I'm getting all discombobbulated, Mildred...that KOH is not
necessarily pure like NaOH is, and I'm not sure how to allow for that on my own.
Being a newbie is so hard :mrgreen:
Between lsg's link to SBM and your comments, I know I need to keep reading
before I do something to me that I'm not going to like!

 

[jcandleattic]

Someone correct me if i'm wrong but..

There is superfatting and there is neutralizing and they are for different reasons.

Let's say you superfat a recipie at 3% and do not make any adjustments to the lye and just go with what the calculator tells you. The soapcalc only calculates enough lye to saponify without taking into account the impurities (5-10%) in KOH that can lead to unsaponified oils. (or am i wrong?)

From what I understand Summerbee Meadow's calculator does take the impurities of KOH into consideration with their calculations.

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

I think you hit where I'm getting all discombobbulated, Mildred...that KOH is not
necessarily pure like NaOH is, and I'm not sure how to allow for that on my own.
Being a newbie is so hard :mrgreen:
Between lsg's link to SBM and your comments, I know I need to keep reading
before I do something to me that I'm not going to like!

Yes, the Summer Bee calculator does calculate with a KOH excess, but I don't believe the soapcalc one does.

Smee! ask away , thats what we are here for. I'm new to soaping myself and have never even done bar soap yet lol. I am also a newbie but I have been doing a lot of research and also learning from trial and error so you can benefit from our mistakes and not repeat them.

If you ask the right questions we can answer them. Have you made bar soap yet?

 

[Smee]

Thanks, Mildred. Trust me, I will ask and ask and ask and ask and....eventually y'all will
tell me to stop asking! I just made my first batch of liquid soap the other day, mostly
to "DO" it. It was part olive, part coconut, using distilled water with the lye. It was
half a batch from a recipe at ChickensInTheRoad.com, called an all-around home
cleaner. I followed the directions as listed, without really understanding the whys of
what I was doing, but I was pleasantly surprised to see how clear it turned out.
I added a lot of glycerin to some and am using it as a foaming hand soap.
I added EO's to another portion to use as hand dishwashing liquid, and
even tried some as a base for shampoo.
Kinda playing with and learning about what I made.

Now I'm wanting to understand all those whys - why did I do this? what is that for? -
and mostly, how do I go on to calculate my own recipes for what I want? Bar soap
seems so much easier. "Plug in the oils and here's whatcha need". This liquid stuff
looks to have a lot fewer hardcore rules established from what I've found so far.
BUT! With lsg's tips, and yours, I think I'll get this figured this out!
And knowing that SBM's calculator adjusts for KOH helps immensely

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

Now I'm wanting to understand all those whys - why did I do this? what is that for? -
and mostly, how do I go on to calculate my own recipes for what I want? Bar soap
seems so much easier. "Plug in the oils and here's whatcha need".

Liquid soap making is not hard but can be intimidating at first. I'm still struggling with how to make a soap that has the following properties:

1. Clear soap
2. Doesn't dry my hands
3. Cleans well with lots of bubbles
4. uses ingredients that aren't too expensive.

it's a work in progress but I think i've isolated it down to:

-Using glycerin for sequestering (does make bubbles more stable and helps to make soap less drying)
-higher dilution when cleansing oils (palm kern, coconut, etc) is used over 25%
-superfatting with a good-for-skin oil like hemp or jojoba
-and sequestering for 2 to 4 weeks.

I have about 5 different recipies i've made using Olive, soybean, coconut, hemp, castor and even one with red palm (lol don't ask why I have this one in my house). I'm fairly comfortable with working with each now and need to zero in on a recipie, dilution rate and be happy with it

 

[Smee]

I have two pints of red palm a friend gave me. Said it was too old to feel safe
feeding to her parrots so asked if it could be used in soap. Haven't tried it
yet but I hear tell "a little dab'll do ya" or else you'll turn orange :smile:

Are you making dish, body, shampoo, housecleaning or :?: LS?
I'm wanting to attempt all the above, and as this is for my own use,
I don't particularly care if it's clear or not, just that it works. (i.e. I don't sell)

Mostly I'm needing unscented, uncolored and as few chemical
additives as possible for family members with severe allergies.
Do you have any recipes you could share or a site you can
recommend? I'd like to do at least one more tried & true before I
go off on my own and start experimenting.

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

Are you making dish, body, shampoo, housecleaning or :?: LS?
I'm wanting to attempt all the above, and as this is for my own use,
I don't particularly care if it's clear or not, just that it works. (i.e. I don't sell)

Mostly I'm needing unscented, uncolored and as few chemical
additives as possible for family members with severe allergies.
Do you have any recipes you could share or a site you can
recommend? I'd like to do at least one more tried & true before I
go off on my own and start experimenting.

I have also been trying to formulate a few different types: hand, dish shampoo/body. all liquid. Clear is not too important either to me but I strive for it. The "unscented" is achievable, uncolored... do you mean not adding color or having it be just completely free of color (as in not yellow/amber as most liquid soap will be?). That will be very hard to achieve. Even the 100% coconut soap I made is yellow and that oil is clear.

What happens durring your family members alergy? Have you isolated which chemical it is they are alergic to. Probably SLS or its cousin (sodium laurel suflate), but that's pretty rare.

In terms of recipies, i'll have to check my notes when I get home and share

 

[Lindy]

Can you neutralize using citric acid or baking soda as an alternative to borax?

I've made liquid soap several times with a 3% SF but still not happy with it for being more drying than I like. The explanation over at SummerBees makes more sense to me. I just would prefer to not use Borax.

Interesting conversation.

 

[Smee]

Lindy, the blogger at Chickensintheroad does talk about neutralizing with
citric acid. Here's the link to the instructions I followed and about 1/2 down
the page it's discussed:
http://chickensintheroad.com/house/crafts/how-to-make-liquid-soap/
I'd like to try that method next so if you beat me to it, I'd love to hear
what you think.

Mildred, as for the family with allergies, they are two nieces who have
allergies to soooo many things I can't begin to list them. Foods are
the biggies, of course, but also chemical, environmental (weeds, grasses).
One of the best things my brother and sister-in-law have found to help is
keep them from being exposed to as many chemicals and man-made things
as they can. As in, why wash with high dollar brand name deodorant soap
when a bar made from olive oil, water & lye is much gentler on their skin.

 

[egirlxx7]

Can you neutralize using citric acid or baking soda as an alternative to borax?

I've made liquid soap several times with a 3% SF but still not happy with it for being more drying than I like. The explanation over at SummerBees makes more sense to me. I just would prefer to not use Borax.

Interesting conversation.

I was going to experiment with the citric acid. As per Failor she says that you can neutralize with citric acid. (I have not heard about using baking soda or tried that one) I think would need a ph meter for this to ensure that I'm well within range?

What I have noticed is that in general when i diluted my past, its still quite thin and when I have used the borax yes it thickens up a bit more. If i used the citric acid, I'm thinking I would need to thicken again.

...I used the Turkey Red Oil for superfatting now, my friends and family don't find the soap to be drying. As before (last year) i was superfatted with extra oils in my soap, It was also about 3%, over this winter, one of my old batches that I had would cloud up really bad when it got really cold, but then when temperatures were fairly good, the soap returned to a clear liquid state.

The drying I have noticed for my soaps came after I added fragrance.
and at that time, I was not using the Turkey Red oil (Sulfinated castor oil), so now I do and the shower gels I make, do not seem drying

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

Can you neutralize using citric acid or baking soda as an alternative to borax?

I've made liquid soap several times with a 3% SF but still not happy with it for being more drying than I like. The explanation over at SummerBees makes more sense to me. I just would prefer to not use Borax.

Interesting conversation.

I prefer citric acid. I like to go where the big boys play and almost every company uses that to neutralize.

Did you let your soap cure for a couple weeks to see if they helped with drying? I'm not convinced that superfatting is the only thing you can do to help with a drying soap. I'm learning there are a ton of other factors at play such as concentration of cleansing oils, dilution rates, how much glycerin is used in sequestering and length of time the soap has had to cure (a couple weeks). As I said in another post I found a fairly weak soap that produced nearly no bubbles to be much better after sitting for a few weeks.

 

[egirlxx7]

I prefer citric acid. I like to go where the big boys play and almost every company uses that to neutralize.

Hi Mildred.naturals

Did you find you had problems with having thin soap when using Citric Acid? and are you only using pheno to test if soap is neutral or zap testing?

 

[Lindy]

Yup I have some that is over 6 months old and although other people like it including one of my commercial clients, I've just not really liked it for myself. I use very little high cleansing oils in anything that I make because I prefer conditioning.

Going to play with this. If I can get it where I like it then hopefully others will like it even better than what I make now.