Suitable for superfatting ?

[oliveoil]

Hi to everyone !
I'm very new here, (joined today) but I have been making soap for about 15 years.
I tend to stick to a basic olive oil/ palm oil/ coconut oil recipe which I have gradually perfected over the years, so I am a little bit afraid to experiment with variants....
However, I am continually experimenting with superfatting, decoration/exfoliants/ perfumes, etc...
I have a couple of questions here and am extremely grateful for any help and advice.
I recently discovered an amazing bio supermarket here in France that stocks some unusual oils. One example is poppyseed oil. Does anyone have experience with this ? Is it suitable for superfatting ?
Also, what about grapeseed oil regarding superfatting ? I am a little bit negative about this oil. I have experienced it as a "poor man's" carrier oil for perfumes and massage oil. I find it very thin and it tends to have a sticky, "gluey" quality which I don't personally like. Does it work well for superfatting ?
Also, what about kurbis oil for superfatting ? it seems very thin, but I am attracted by its beautiful dark, mossy green colour.
Really gateful for your help and an tips regarding superfatting !:?:

 

[DeeAnna]

Do you use a hot process method to make your soap? If so, you can control which fat is used as the superfat. If you use a cold process method, you cannot -- the lye will react with whatever fats it wants.

I hope others chime in about the specific fats you mentioned -- I do not have experience with any of them.

Kurbis oil = pumpkin seed oil. I know several soapers on this Forum have been using it in their soap with nice results.

Hello back to you ... and welcome!

 

[oliveoil]

Thanks for your reply. I think I am using the cold method. That is to say, I blend the oils together and heat to 38 centigrade and mix with the lye at the same temperature. Is that classed as cold process ???
I always add a generous amount of jojoba oil, or olive oil / almond oil at trace , for superfatting, (approx 50ml pro kg soap) It seems to work very well and I get a wonderful waxy surface on the soap. It takes longer to cure, but it's very skin friendly and the bars seem to lasts longer than without superfatting.

 

[xraygrl]

Hi there! I don't have any experience with either poppyseed oil or pumpkin seed oil, but I have used grape seed oil and I was not impressed. It didn't seem to anything special in the soap, and it's very prone to rancidity.

 

[oliveoil]

Hi there! I don't have any experience with either poppyseed oil or pumpkin seed oil, but I have used grape seed oil and I was not impressed. It didn't seem to anything special in the soap, and it's very prone to rancidity.

Thanks. Good to know. I never liked massage oils or perfume oils that used grapeseed oil as a carrier...
I have made my first soap using argan oil as superfatting agent, but it's hellishly expensive !! I was considering borage oil, but the prices are extremely high too for this here in France.
Blackseed oil sounds interesting...

 

[judymoody]

Welcome to the forum!

Grapeseed oil has a short shelf life but I use it as a main oil in an acne soap and it has its place there. Otherwise, no.

Regarding poppyseed, I've found that the seeds themselves go rancid, so I'd hesitate about using the oil. I suppose you could try it in a small batch and see how it goes.

As far as I'm concerned, if you have a recipe you like, why rock the boat? I bought many different oils when I first started soaping and my basic recipe that I stuck with is CO, PO, OO, castor, and a butter, which varies. I love virgin avocado oil so I use that when I want to treat myself.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

As DeeAnna said, as you are using cold process the oils added at trace are going to be saponified like the rest of them. In hot process we add the superfat once all of the lye has saponified with oils, which is very different.

Kurbis makes a lovely soap - I'm using one of my old bars at the moment

 

[oliveoil]

Thanks to everyone for your help.
I have obviously misunderstood some of the soap making books I have been reading because I understood that with the cold process you can add extra oil, (just before trace) and the soap will be superfatted...the extra oil you add at trace will remain outside the saponification as a moisturiser. That's what I understood from the Susan Miller Cavitch soap making book.
Is this not the case ?
Thanks for any help in clarifying this.

 

[Lindy]

Hi Oliveoil, unfortunately the only time added oil becomes the only superfat is in hot process where the oil is added after saponification. As long as the lye is still active then it will take what it will take.

 

[IrishLass]

Hi Oliveoil!

Although the CP-superfatting-at-trace theory from the book in question sounds reasonable and has been repeated in many other soaping books, it has been recently proven to be wishful thinking at best.

Here is a great PDF by Dr. Ken Dunn that talks about his experiments where he put the theory to the test (and to bed):

http://cavemanchemistry.com/LyeDiscount-Dunn.pdf


IrishLass

 

[oliveoil]

Thanks to everyone for your help !
I only make cold process soap and have got into the habit of adding extra oil at trace. I always make smaller batches (1. 2 kg) and usually add approx 50ml - 70ml jojoba oil at trace. It may not be classed as superfatting, but after curing the soaps have a wonderful waxy sheen, which they do not have when I stick to the suggested recipie calculation. I really notice a huge difference with the added oil. The soap is more moisturising and does take longer to cure and harden. Perhaps there should be a different expression for adding oil at trace for the cold process, instead of the term superfatting ?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It's called a superfluous step, I have to say. But in CP the term "lye discount" is also used, because you are simply using less lye than needed for the oils.

But you are comparing apples to oranges here when you say that it is better when you add the jojoba at trace then it is when you don't - if you calculate the recipe to include the jojoba and add it with the other oils at the start of the process, the end result will be the same. If you make a usual batch with no jojoba at all, of course it will be different from a batch with jojoba added.

As the research from Dr Dunn shows, adding at trace instead of adding at the start makes no difference in this method.

My personal take on it is thus - it takes 24 hours for a CP soap to saponify. Adding something in at trace means that it is not in with the lye for less than 1/24th of the saponification time. 1/24! And that is the outside figure, as I don't think 1 hour goes by between you adding the lye and then adding in the extra oil, so it might be all of 1/48 of the time. In other words, none at all.

I'm sorry to be so blunt on it, but it is one of those lies that keeps getting brought up and people seem loathe to let it go even though it is utterly baseless.

 

[Cindy2428]

Olive there is also another variable - Jojoba "oil" is actually a wax and what you may be lucky enough to experience is that the lye has attached itself to the more "friendly" oils which is resulting in the sheen you like so well. We have the wonderful benefit of some super sharp chemists here, so I will happily defer to them, but as Judy mentioned, if your current recipe works for you, don't mess with it!

 

[Lindy]

I believe in doing what you feel good about even if the science doesn't back it up but don't fool yourself into believing that doing it that way changes the end result of the soap. You might try doing the equivalent in a superfat/lye discount and I think you will be surprised at what you get.

 

[jcorelle]

Oliveoil did you ever try the poppyseed oil?