Success at my first bastille LS! or not?

[Lyma]

Hi again.
After your useful information at my previous post on how to begin, i've made my first try.
90% Olive, 10% Coconut, 3% superfat (90%KOH), 25% lye concentration

I think all went quite well (just felt the same feelings as my first success at CP)!

My process so far:
I've reached trace after 30 minutes of stickblending the oils and lye mixture at about 60C degrees. I've put on a bain marie and let it cook at low heat for three hours. Then i've made a zap test (it was zap free) and a clarity test (it was quite clear). So i've diluted the paste at 1:1 ratio and let it sit overnight.
Next day i've added the same amount of water (2:1 ratio total) and let it sit another day. Occasionally i was stirring and heating.
And now i'm on the third day and i've got still some undiluted paste.

I have a few questions and remarks to make so to understand better the whole process.

1. After you reach medium trace, is it important to stir until heavy trace, or we can start cooking then?

2. The paste in the 1st hour of cooking was like mashed potatos or apple sauce. In the next two hours of cooking it didn't get like transparent vazeline. Only a few small chunks were transparent. These chunks were quite more warm than the rest. The rest became more like shaving foam. Is this normal to become so soft? (pic1)

3. How long we cook the paste, affects the needed water for dilution?

4. When i've made the clarity test (started for a 2:1 ratio and then 3:1) only half of the paste diluted. It took one day for the whole to dilute. However the mixture was clear and at the beginning and at the other day. (pic2). The clarity test seems to me more like a sample of our final product!

5. At the dilution stage where there was still undiluted paste, i observed that when i warm the paste it become immediately watery and when it cools it thickens. Is this normal?

6. I'm finding hard after two days of diluting, to understand if it needs more water or more time to completely dilute. There is undiluted paste at the surface and the rest mixture is like gel when cools and watery when warm. (pic3). I think two days with occasional stirring and heating is a long time to dilute, but on the other hand the mixture is not so thick as i want, and i'm afraid to add more water. What i've did is to stickblend it and it became evenly all thick as honey (perfect!) and cloudy (pic4). Have to see tomorrow if it will get clear or it will form again undilted paste at the surface.

Have to mention that the sample of the clarity test went just perfect. When all the soap diluted, it was a bit watery due to the 3:1 ratio, but i've added a few salt solution and it became like honey and quite clear. (pic5)
I just want to have the same result on the rest without adding salt solution.

Thank you in advance

 

[Lyma]

Anyone who can give his wisdom?
I know, my questions are many, but i'm trying to gather them at once than to ask you again and again

In fact my main issue and maybe the only one from my first LS attempt was the dilution. It went quite well, but i didn't achieve the consistency i would like.
I've read many times here, that if you add slowly the water in small portions, you can achieve the thickness you like (eg thick syrup or honey).
In my case when the thickness was perfect for me like thick syrup i still had undiluted paste. I waited for 1-2 days and it didn't dilute. (2:1 water to paste) Therefore i added more water in small doses each time until all would be diluted (2,4:1 final dilution rate) But then the soap was quite fluid. So i concluded that it's not up to me to decide the thickness of the soap, it's just how much water the paste needs to be diluted completely.
As i've mentioned before, in the sample of the clarity test (3:1 dilution) i've added 3gr of salt solution 20% and it came to the perfect consistency.
I just wanted to achieve this consistency without having to add salt solution and of course without having undiluted paste

In the pic below the left one is the 2,4:1 dilution rate and the right one is the sample of the clarity test with the salt solution.

 

[Susie]

Hi again.
After your useful information at my previous post on how to begin, i've made my first try.
90% Olive, 10% Coconut, 3% superfat (90%KOH), 25% lye concentration

I think all went quite well (just felt the same feelings as my first success at CP)!

My process so far:
I've reached trace after 30 minutes of stickblending the oils and lye mixture at about 60C degrees. I've put on a bain marie and let it cook at low heat for three hours. Then i've made a zap test (it was zap free) and a clarity test (it was quite clear). So i've diluted the paste at 1:1 ratio and let it sit overnight.
Next day i've added the same amount of water (2:1 ratio total) and let it sit another day. Occasionally i was stirring and heating.
And now i'm on the third day and i've got still some undiluted paste.

I have a few questions and remarks to make so to understand better the whole process.

1. After you reach medium trace, is it important to stir until heavy trace, or we can start cooking then?

It is actually not at all necessary to cook liquid soap paste. You can, but it is not necessary. If you choose to, you can start cooking while stickblending to trace. You just don't get to call it "the cook" until you reach paste.

2. The paste in the 1st hour of cooking was like mashed potatos or apple sauce. In the next two hours of cooking it didn't get like transparent vazeline. Only a few small chunks were transparent. These chunks were quite more warm than the rest. The rest became more like shaving foam. Is this normal to become so soft? (pic1)

If you got it to apple sauce stage, you cooked it enough. The shaving foam parts were probably cooked more, and had bubbles in it. Being soft is OK.

3. How long we cook the paste, affects the needed water for dilution?

Perhaps, you can seriously dry out your paste with over cooking.

4. When i've made the clarity test (started for a 2:1 ratio and then 3:1) only half of the paste diluted. It took one day for the whole to dilute. However the mixture was clear and at the beginning and at the other day. (pic2). The clarity test seems to me more like a sample of our final product!

The clarity test checks for unsaponified fats. Not dilution. And you truly need to zap test for lye heaviness rather than clarity test.

5. At the dilution stage where there was still undiluted paste, i observed that when i warm the paste it become immediately watery and when it cools it thickens. Is this normal?

Yes

6. I'm finding hard after two days of diluting, to understand if it needs more water or more time to completely dilute. There is undiluted paste at the surface and the rest mixture is like gel when cools and watery when warm. (pic3). I think two days with occasional stirring and heating is a long time to dilute, but on the other hand the mixture is not so thick as i want, and i'm afraid to add more water. What i've did is to stickblend it and it became evenly all thick as honey (perfect!) and cloudy (pic4). Have to see tomorrow if it will get clear or it will form again undilted paste at the surface.

Have to mention that the sample of the clarity test went just perfect. When all the soap diluted, it was a bit watery due to the 3:1 ratio, but i've added a few salt solution and it became like honey and quite clear. (pic5)
I just want to have the same result on the rest without adding salt solution.

Thank you in advance

Dilution rates have more to do with your oils and additives than anything. If you want thick liquid soap, you are either going to have to go with IrishLass' liquid glycerin soap recipe and method, or use a thickener. Your choice, but liquid soap is thin by nature.

Here is a thread I think you should read in its entirety that includes IrishLass' tutorial, and lots of other good info: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

Here is another one: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

 

[IrishLass]

It sounds like you may be using the Catherine Failor method of liquid soapmaking? I've only ever made my liquid soap via the 'glycerin method', or the 'pharmacist's method' as it is also known around here, so I did not feel qualified to answer some of your questions....

.... For example, with the glycerin method, I never speak of my batter with terms like 'trace' like I do with my CP. I know how strange that must sound, but with my GLS, I use terms like 'flying bubble stage', and the 'taffy/paste stage' instead. lol ....

To explain, I hand-whisk my liquid soap batter (off the heat) for about 10 minutes or so, just until emulsified, which is usually- but not always- evidenced by the appearance of flying bubbles floating in the air around my soaping pot (hence the term, 'flying bubble stage'). The batter itself is actually still quite thin at that point, not even to what I would consider to be light trace in CP terms. Once the flying bubbles make their appearance, or it looks like I have a stable emulsion, I then cover my pot good and tight and simply walk away and busy myself with other stuff- still off the heat- no cooking required at all. Then sometime within the next 4 to 6 hours or so later when I've remember to check on it again, it never fails that I have a pot of finished taffy/paste staring up at me......and I didn't have to do a thing except to simply leave it alone to do it's thing on its own on my counter. My kind of process. lol Next I check the paste/taffy for zap, and if there's no zap, I dilute, or else scoop the paste into a freezer bag and store in the fridge until I feel like diluting it.

For what it's worth, I never do (nor have I ever done) a clarity test with my GLS, and now that I have my dilution rates all figured out to my satisfaction, it's never necessary for me to add salt to my liquid soap to make it thicker. I tried adding salt once back in my earlier days of liquid soapmaking when I was still trying to perfect my dilution rates, but I didn't like how things turned out with it. It was very tricky to use (one drop too many and the soap would actually thin out), and it also had the tendency to diminish my lather. The 2 things that worked better for me in that regard were either adding a little more paste if I still had some on hand, or else pouring the soap in a pot and gently heating it to evaporate the excess liquid out, which of course would thicken it up nicely. I weighed everything before and after heating (or adding more paste) so that I could better adjust/perfect my dilution rate for next time.

Speaking of thickness, according to those who have made liquid soap via both the Failor method and the glyceryn method, it is much easier to achieve a thick liquid soap via the glycerin method than it is via the Failor method. Having never tried the Failor method myself, I have no experiential evidence of my own to be able to confirm or deny that, but for what it is worth, I can firmly attest that I am able to achieve a very thick liquid soap using the glycerin method....as thick as pourable honey.


IrishLass

 

[cmzaha]

I never cook my ls. I bring it to trace, cover and let it sit.

 

[Lyma]

Thanks again Susie, Irishlass and Carolyn!
Next time i'll try not to heat at all the mixture after stick blending. Just let time do his job. I've always being flattered by cold process.
As i understand, with the Failor's method you get a thinner result than with the glycerin method. And it sounds reasonable to me...

Just wondering if the acidity of the olive oil may affect the thickness.
I use EVOO of very low acidity, and as i've learned from CP such low acidities give different results than OO with high acidity, and during the process and in the final bar.