Soy Wax Users

[Quanta]

Many things have been brought up already. Let me add that even if phytoestrogens made it into the oil, I don't believe that they would survive the harsh conditions of hydrogenation (high temperatures, hydrogen pressure, catalysts). Not even a simple molecule like oleic acid does, and that's the whole point of hydrogenation.

But if you (or your customers) still aren't convinced (or you want to avoid the silly “unmanly” rep of soy for the sake of “green labeling”), you still can opt for a hydrogenated wax made from canola or sunflower oil. Guaranteed 100% safe from containing any soy phytoestrogens.

I've looked all over and I think canola wax is a European thing, since I can't find a place to buy it in the USA. I can find sunflower wax at a few places, and it is crazy expensive.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I've looked all over and I think canola wax is a European thing, since I can't find a place to buy it in the USA. I can find sunflower wax at a few places, and it is crazy expensive.

Hmmm. That might well be the case (no strong soy lobby, GMO alertness). A bummer when choice exists, but is not offered to customers ☹. In return, this means that much of the soy wax knowledge of this thread is useless to us Europeans, who can't get their hands on the many soy wax varieties.

“Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to helianthus annuus seed cera, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for hydrogenated sunflower oil at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Hmmm. That might well be the case (no strong soy lobby, GMO alertness). A bummer when choice exists, but is not offered to customers ☹. In return, this means that much of the soy wax knowledge of this thread is useless to us Europeans, who can't get their hands on the many soy wax varieties.

“Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to helianthus annuus seed cera, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for hydrogenated sunflower oil at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.

Eurosoy is apparently very good

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Eurosoy is apparently very good

I was talking about Europe, not the UK


ETA: Joke/politics aside, I haven't tried hard enough yet to find a go-to supplier for hydrogenated vegetable oil (who sells it anywhere near my go-to quantities). That might change, but for the time being I'm just qualified enough to follow this group to lament over bad lab-scale accessibility, be it from whatever plant oil the waxes are derived.

 

[Tara_H]

I was talking about Europe, not the UK

I have no horse in this race, but when I looked up Eurosoy it says it's from Germany?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

You're right (EUROSOY GmbH, Hamburg). But for whatever reason I only ever find it sold in £ by UK retailers.

But as already said, I actually have no horse in this race either. Blessed are those who having nothing to say and still keep their mouths shut.

 

[Quanta]

“Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to helianthus annuus seed cera, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for hydrogenated sunflower oil at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.

You're probably right. I didn't look too closely at the sunflower wax I did find, once I saw the price. I think it's unfortunate that hydrogenated oils have acquired the nickname of "wax", since it only causes confusion.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I think it's unfortunate that hydrogenated oils have acquired the nickname of "wax", since it only causes confusion.

Just to make things even more complicated, there is sumac wax (japan wax), that is mostly saturated triglyceride (natural tripalmitin), not hydrogenated, very useful in soapmaking as a hard oil, and traditionally used in Japan for … candles! And, of course, its INCI reads Rhus Verniciflua Peel Cera.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I was talking about Europe, not the UK


ETA: Joke/politics aside, I haven't tried hard enough yet to find a go-to supplier for hydrogenated vegetable oil (who sells it anywhere near my go-to quantities). That might change, but for the time being I'm just qualified enough to follow this group to lament over bad lab-scale accessibility, be it from whatever plant oil the waxes are derived.

Yeh - the Brits have now been 'Brexited'.

 

[earlene]

You're right (EUROSOY GmbH, Hamburg). But for whatever reason I only ever find it sold in £ by UK retailers.

But as already said, I actually have no horse in this race either. Blessed are those who having nothing to say and still keep their mouths shut.

Funny how finding a product that logically should be available near you, isn't. I thought that about soy beans when I first moved here. Soy beans are the second major crop here in this part of the country, grown by most farmers for hundreds of miles around. Does any store around her sell dried soybeans for human consumption? No, not a single grocery store carries dried soy beans, except a couple of Health Foods stores in the major cities, not the tiny one that just opened up here in our little town. In my state of birth, where soybeans are not a common crop, I could buy dried soybeans in practically any grocery store up until I moved away about 16 years ago. Here, it's grown for either seed, feed, oil, fuel, or export. No one wants to eat it. Go figure. Corn is the other crop, but at least I can buy corn in the grocery store, although not corn grown here.

Just to make things even more complicated, there is sumac wax (japan wax), that is mostly saturated triglyceride (natural tripalmitin), not hydrogenated, very useful in soapmaking as a hard oil, and traditionally used in Japan for … candles! And, of course, its INCI reads Rhus Verniciflua Peel Cera.

We can buy Japan wax in the US, too, but it's pretty expensive. 5kg (11 US pounds) is $62.50 US, plus shipping (which always varies by vendor and distance.) I've never tried it. You have, right? Do you find it is a worthy addition to soap & how does it compare price-wise in your region of the world?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Does any store around her sell dried soybeans for human consumption? No, not a single grocery store carries dried soy beans, except a couple of Health Foods stores in the major cities, not the tiny one that just opened up here in our little town.

That's crazy. But I know exactly what you mean. Soy is growing in hiking distance from me, yet in organic grocery stores they usually sell ones imported from China… At least a few stores mind to source from German producers (and surprise: they aren't even more expensive than those that traveled half around the globe!).

We can buy Japan wax in the US, too, but it's pretty expensive. 5kg (11 US pounds) is $62.50 US, plus shipping (which always varies by vendor and distance.) I've never tried it. You have, right? Do you find it is a worthy addition to soap & how does it compare price-wise in your region of the world?

Yes, it is expensive here too. I even paid 10€ for 250 g (economies of scale hitting hard, I guess). Economically, I can't really compare it to soy/canola wax or palm stearin. Definitely only profitable if one throws “green labeling” into the pot (plant-based, palm-free, no food competition, no hydrogenation/chemical modification).

For soapmaking, I like with it that I can ramp up palmitic/hardness values of any recipe to arbitrary values, without affecting other properties. It's about the only possibility (besides pure palmitic acid) to do so without upping stearic too. I have stearic acid under suspicion to have some profound antipathy to the water hardness around here (or maybe I'm just super picky about these things), and palmitic soaps appear to be less affected. Japan wax seems to accelerate trace a little bit (more so than my one-candle-at-a-time canola wax), but not as dramatic as, say, palm oil (at the equivalent hardness-increasing dosage).

However, I've got the Japan wax just recently, the first soaps I made with it are barely cured to a state where I can judge by direct comparison. The more curious I am about the results of my palmitic-vs-stearic experiment!

Is it a “worthy addition to soap”? A wholehearted Yes! from scientist me, who appreciates its flexibility and “purity” in designing experimental recipes. But as a regular addition to John Doe's everyday soap? Not so sure… If I had a free wish, I'd choose fractionated/hydrogenated rice bran or cottonseed oil.

 

[earlene]

Is it a “worthy addition to soap”? A wholehearted Yes! from scientist me, who appreciates its flexibility and “purity” in designing experimental recipes. But as a regular addition to John Doe's everyday soap? Not so sure… If I had a free wish, I'd choose fractionated/hydrogenated rice bran or cottonseed oil.

Okay, you got me. Where do you source fractionated/hydrogenated rice bran? I had never even heard of it, although I see via Google there's a lot info about its existence. Won't eve ask about cottonseed, as that's not something we see in the US.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Sorry to disappoint you. I've never heard of someone hydrogenating rice bran oil either. I too wish I would… It actually was more a wishful thinking, like If I had an influence on future innovations of industry/If I had a free wish what they could produce for me/If I had a hydrogenation apparatus by myself.

 

[Katie68121]

Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing

 

[earlene]

Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing

Not knowing the rest of your recipe, I can't say for sure, but I believe it may be a bit too cool.

What do you normally soap at? And which soy wax did you purchase? Is the melting point of your soy wax is the same as the melting point of the oil you are replacing, you wouldn't necessarily have to change your soaping temperatures at all. However, if you are only adding a new oil and all the other oils are liquid at room temp, then, yes of course you need to soap warmer.

As long as your melted oils all remain clear & not cloudy, that's your indicator of how low you can go, but you should soap at a slighter warmer temp because the batter may cool if you try anything like multiple colors and so forth.

But to give you a temperature range with GW415 soy wax in the mix, See these posts:
130° F : Soy Wax Soap Saranac was the SMF member who got me into using soy wax
125° F : Contemplating soy wax
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
113° F (45° C) usual temp: Temperature for CP
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
100° F not warm enough in some cases: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk

The temperatures would need to be higher for a soy wax with a higher melting point.

 

[Richard Perrine]

Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing

When I first started soaping a few years ago there was a heavy emphasis on temp of oils. I was told that it should be no higher than this or that. I understand that that is a strong consideration when it comes to fragrances/oils, but I have largely ignored any need to resign myself to any particular temp restriction. In the case of way wax, I simply wait for the wax to melt and move on from there. I have found it to trace a little quicker, but larger based on the essential oils I use. Some quicker, some not so. So, I melt, take the temperature and if there is a recommended temp for the essential oil, I wait for that temp. If not, I don't care about the temperature and pour when all mixed and there is tracing. I wonder if I've made any sense.

 

[Katie68121]

Not knowing the rest of your recipe, I can't say for sure, but I believe it may be a bit too cool.

What do you normally soap at? And which soy wax did you purchase? Is the melting point of your soy wax is the same as the melting point of the oil you are replacing, you wouldn't necessarily have to change your soaping temperatures at all. However, if you are only adding a new oil and all the other oils are liquid at room temp, then, yes of course you need to soap warmer.

As long as your melted oils all remain clear & not cloudy, that's your indicator of how low you can go, but you should soap at a slighter warmer temp because the batter may cool if you try anything like multiple colors and so forth.

But to give you a temperature range with GW415 soy wax in the mix, See these posts:
130° F : Soy Wax Soap Saranac was the SMF member who got me into using soy wax
125° F : Contemplating soy wax
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
113° F (45° C) usual temp: Temperature for CP
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
100° F not warm enough in some cases: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk

The temperatures would need to be higher for a soy wax with a higher melting point.

Thank you! I bought this Natural soy wax from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OXOZDA?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_detailsI usually soap lower than 100F because I was getting cracking issues in my batches I soaped around 110F.
This soy wax states melt point of 121-125
My recipe is as follows using a 33% LC
OO 45%
CO 20%
SW 20% changed from 15%
castor 5%
cocoa butter 10%
Im just going to give it a go, see what happens.

 

[earlene]

Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing

Thank you! I bought this Natural soy wax from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OXOZDA?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_detailsI usually soap lower than 100F because I was getting cracking issues in my batches I soaped around 110F.
This soy wax states melt point of 121-125
My recipe is as follows using a 33% LC
OO 45%
CO 20%
SW 20% changed from 15%
castor 5%
cocoa butter 10%
Im just going to give it a go, see what happens.

Yes, I have purchased that very same product from Amazon. It will be just fine in soap. I tend to soap a little warmer than 110 when I am working with soy, closer to 120, but it also depends on the other ingredients in the formula. But try it and see how it goes for you.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

“Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to helianthus annuus seed cera, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for hydrogenated sunflower oil at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.

By chance, I found that Cargill NatureWax C-3S is hydrogenated sunflower oil (as it seems, their variation of C-3 soy wax, directed to the soy-skeptical European market): Naturewax vegetable oil based candle waxes - Europe | Cargill . Still strange, many places that sell it, call it “Sunflower-olive wax”. This appears to me like label appeal tactics/greenwashing: dump a few % of inedible/lowest-grade olive pomace extract into the Helianthus oil, to profit from the good rep of Olea.

Not sure if this “C3S” from the French seller ADC is the same as the Cargill, but they at least have a MSDS that lists it as “100% Sunflower oil, hydrogenated”. Poth-Hille sells something interchangeably called C-3S or C3S (PHC 3458) in the UK, and their gloss-print “data sheet” mentions olive as well, while their overview listing doesn't.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Not knowing the rest of your recipe, I can't say for sure, but I believe it may be a bit too cool.

What do you normally soap at? And which soy wax did you purchase? Is the melting point of your soy wax is the same as the melting point of the oil you are replacing, you wouldn't necessarily have to change your soaping temperatures at all. However, if you are only adding a new oil and all the other oils are liquid at room temp, then, yes of course you need to soap warmer.

As long as your melted oils all remain clear & not cloudy, that's your indicator of how low you can go, but you should soap at a slighter warmer temp because the batter may cool if you try anything like multiple colors and so forth.

But to give you a temperature range with GW415 soy wax in the mix, See these posts:
130° F : Soy Wax Soap Saranac was the SMF member who got me into using soy wax
125° F : Contemplating soy wax
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
113° F (45° C) usual temp: Temperature for CP
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
100° F not warm enough in some cases: Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk

The temperatures would need to be higher for a soy wax with a higher melting point.

I have recently soaped successfully with an oil temp of 36 degrees (which is just under your 100 degrees) and I use GW415 or similar replacement if it is currently available ( with COVID it’s been a nightmare to get stuff). I use it at 20% of my recipe.