Soy Wax Users

[RDak]

Andrew has a point. I wouldn't swap out any oil, without seeing how it effects the fatty acid profile and properties. If you have a recipe that you like and you want to swap out lard, tallow or palm for SW, you will likely need to adjust all the percentages oils to get to same fatty acid profile or properties that your original recipe has.

It seems to me it is a replacement for those oils in the area of hardening the bars.

Kiwi appears to use about one half of the normal percentage of soy wax to achieve the same hardness as my 40 percent tallow recipes.

That would allow her to use soft oils more and gain the same hardness.

My main question really is...…...how does the soy wax "feel" and "affect" the skin when used in those rather substantial amounts members are using it at and not using as much lard, tallow or palm?

For example, let's say I make a batch of 20 percent BOTH soy wax and coconut with the remaining 60 percent HO Canola oil (which is found easily at pretty cheap prices in many areas).

Would that make a good soap? It would save people money in most cases if it does.

The Soapee calculator says it is acceptable in all areas except it is one point low in the bubbly area.

 

[Dean]

For example, let's say I make a batch of 20 percent BOTH soy wax and coconut with the remaining 60 percent HO Canola oil (which is found easily at pretty cheap prices in many areas).

Would that make a good soap? It would save people money in most cases if it does.

I find no adverse effect on skin feel. To me it’s neutral.

I think it would make very nice soap. It will be more mild than ur tallow recpie becuz it will be less cleansing. Other than that the properties are pretty much the same. Y not make a of cpl of test bars?

 

[RDak]

I think it would make very nice soap. Maybe add 5% castor for lather stability. I’ve made a similar recipie. Y not make a of cpl of test bars?

Thanks.

I am done making soap for the season but I think I will try, 20 percent both of soy wax and coconut, 55 percent HO Canola and 5 percent Castor.

I always use 5 percent castor so I should have put that in my original question....sorry.

Just for the heck of it I think I will try a few batches of that recipe next fall/winter when I make all my batches.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Sounds good @RDak - my preference is for RBO if you're after a cheapie, but it can't be used over about 15% without bringing the lino's up too high. I've recently started adding avocado oil at 10 - 15% in all my recipes and I've fallen in love with it. A much creamier lather than previously when I used Apricot kernel Oil. For only $1 difference per litre, I'm switching to Avocado.

To answer the 'feel' of soy wax on your skin - I can't compare with animal fats or palm because I've never used them, but all I can say it feels and performs a bit like a hard butter would in soap? Say a cocoa butter? I've noticed some similarity there with my CB soaps I have made.

 

[earlene]

Right, for those of us who don't use soaps with animal fats, it's hard to give a definitive answer. I don't even use palm very often either, although I have used it some to see what it was like, plus I was given some PKO as well and used that. But to compare how soy wax in soap feels on my skin compared to the other ingredients, I just have insufficient personal knowledge.

Perhaps someone who normally uses soaps with animal fats &/or palm will come along with some personal comparisons.

 

[Dean]

Sounds good @RDak - my preference is for RBO if you're after a cheapie, but it can't be used over about 15% without bringing the lino's up too high. I've recently started adding avocado oil at 10 - 15% in all my recipes and I've fallen in love with it. A much creamier lather than previously when I used Apricot kernel Oil. For only $1 difference per litre, I'm switching to Avocado.

To answer the 'feel' of soy wax on your skin - I can't compare with animal fats or palm because I've never used them, but all I can say it feels and performs a bit like a hard butter would in soap? Say a cocoa butter? I've noticed some similarity there with my CB soaps I have made.

Good advice. Henceforth, I dub thee Soy Wax Queen.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Good advice. Henceforth, I dub thee Soy Wax Queen.

Lol, I was a Princess and now I’m a Queen? Bismillah, no!

 

[Dawni]

So I ordered the 444! I'm still waiting around for some suppliers to come back to me. Still hoping for the 415....

@RDak if you don't mind waiting a bit til I can use my soy wax.. I have used lard so at least for that one I can give a comparison. I can't find tallow and only have access to palm olein, not palm, sorry.

I'll use a usual recipe that has no other hardeners and only switch the lard for soy wax at 30% (that's the amount of lard used in that recipe) and I'll report back here. That seems to be a good number, yes?

I'll even CP it so it'll be a better comparison for you guys lol good thing I have a lard CP soap.....

 

[KiwiMoose]

Love the new profile pic @Dawni!

 

[RDak]

Sounds good @RDak - my preference is for RBO if you're after a cheapie, but it can't be used over about 15% without bringing the lino's up too high. I've recently started adding avocado oil at 10 - 15% in all my recipes and I've fallen in love with it. A much creamier lather than previously when I used Apricot kernel Oil. For only $1 difference per litre, I'm switching to Avocado.

To answer the 'feel' of soy wax on your skin - I can't compare with animal fats or palm because I've never used them, but all I can say it feels and performs a bit like a hard butter would in soap? Say a cocoa butter? I've noticed some similarity there with my CB soaps I have made.

Thanks!

I can get HO Canola at Gordon Food Service stores for pretty cheap in large quantities.

I have used RBO over the years and it is good also but I didn't notice too much of a difference between the two.

I wish Soapers Choice sold soy wax.

So I ordered the 444! I'm still waiting around for some suppliers to come back to me. Still hoping for the 415....

@RDak if you don't mind waiting a bit til I can use my soy wax.. I have used lard so at least for that one I can give a comparison. I can't find tallow and only have access to palm olein, not palm, sorry.

I'll use a usual recipe that has no other hardeners and only switch the lard for soy wax at 30% (that's the amount of lard used in that recipe) and I'll report back here. That seems to be a good number, yes?

I'll even CP it so it'll be a better comparison for you guys lol good thing I have a lard CP soap.....

Will do because the season is over for me with soaping......I do it starting late fall through most of the winter only.

Ask Kiwi about the percentage to use...….I have NO IDEA.

 

[Andrew]

Thanks!

I can get HO Canola at Gordon Food Service stores for pretty cheap in large quantities.

I have used RBO over the years and it is good also but I didn't notice too much of a difference between the two.

I wish Soapers Choice sold soy wax.

no one really sells soy wax. you can get candle wax, but it does not work the same at all since they are all partially hydrogenated. Here is where I source mine from. 50 lbs boxes. If you really want some, feel free to shoot me an email.

Chemol Company Inc.
2300 Randolph Ave
Greensboro, NC 27406
800-849-3050 office

 

[earlene]

So I ordered the 444! I'm still waiting around for some suppliers to come back to me. Still hoping for the 415....

@RDak if you don't mind waiting a bit til I can use my soy wax.. I have used lard so at least for that one I can give a comparison. I can't find tallow and only have access to palm olein, not palm, sorry.

I'll use a usual recipe that has no other hardeners and only switch the lard for soy wax at 30% (that's the amount of lard used in that recipe) and I'll report back here. That seems to be a good number, yes?

I'll even CP it so it'll be a better comparison for you guys lol good thing I have a lard CP soap.....

Yes, 30% Soy Wax is fine. That's what I generally use, although you can use more. But for comparison purposes, I believe it's best to maintain the same percentage as the oil your are substituting. That way you can make a true comparison to how the bar differs from the bar made with 30% Lard.

 

[KiwiMoose]

no one really sells soy wax. you can get candle wax, but it does not work the same at all since they are all partially hydrogenated. Here is where I source mine from. 50 lbs boxes. If you really want some, feel free to shoot me an email.

Chemol Company Inc.

2300 Randolph Ave

Greensboro, NC 27406

800-849-3050 office

Not sure what you mean Andrew? Soy wax is hydrogenated soybean oil. Plenty of places sell it, it's just getting the pure soy wax with no additives ( for candles) that is difficult. However, I live in li'l ol' New Zealand and we can even get it here. Golden Brands 415.

 

[earlene]

I think what he (Andrew) means is that it's not a 'true wax'. Or not a naturally occurring wax, rather created by humans via processing. Regardless, that's what they call it, so that's what we call it. And that's how it's listed in the lye calculators, so it makes it easy to find when we make soap.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I think what he (Andrew) means is that it's not a 'true wax'. Or not a naturally occurring wax, rather created by humans via processing. Regardless, that's what they call it, so that's what we call it. And that's how it's listed in the lye calculators, so it makes it easy to find when we make soap.

Oh I see! Sorry Andrew

 

[Andrew]

Not sure what you mean Andrew? Soy wax is hydrogenated soybean oil. Plenty of places sell it, it's just getting the pure soy wax with no additives ( for candles) that is difficult. However, I live in li'l ol' New Zealand and we can even get it here. Golden Brands 415.

If you look at the fatty acid break down of 415 and 444 and, well any, golden brands candle wax then you will see that there is a very high amount of linoleic/lineoleic acids. You can also see this in the spec sheet by looking at the melting points ranging from ~100˚-130˚. Golden Brands 415 wax states 44% satruated fat, 39.4% trans fat, and 16.6 monosaturated fat with a melting point of 121-125. Pure hydrogenated soy was has a melting point of ~145˚ reflecting the stearic/palmitic acids and is 98% saturated fat. Plainly put, if you are using golden brands candle wax in soap, you are not getting fully hydrogenated soy wax, but instead a partially hydrogenated product made specifically for various types of candle making and you don't know how it fits into the lye calculator. https://dpoy1j4zladj1.cloudfront.net/415.pdf

Fully hydrogenated soy is extremely hard to source as it competes with palm stearic acid for price and use.

 

[Dean]

If you look at the fatty acid break down of 415 and 444 and, well any, golden brands candle wax then you will see that there is a very high amount of linoleic/lineoleic acids. You can also see this in the spec sheet by looking at the melting points ranging from ~100˚-130˚. Golden Brands 415 wax states 44% satruated fat, 39.4% trans fat, and 16.6 monosaturated fat with a melting point of 121-125. Pure hydrogenated soy was has a melting point of ~145˚ reflecting the stearic/palmitic acids and is 98% saturated fat. Plainly put, if you are using golden brands candle wax in soap, you are not getting fully hydrogenated soy wax, but instead a partially hydrogenated product made specifically for various types of candle making and you don't know how it fits into the lye calculator. https://dpoy1j4zladj1.cloudfront.net/415.pdf

Fully hydrogenated soy is extremely hard to source as it competes with palm stearic acid for price and use.

Wow! That’s bombshell for us SW users. I’m godsmacked.

Ur right! I just checked my vendor’s site. It states 415 is partially hydrogenated SO.

I use SW at 40%. In the calc thats a hardness factor and saturation of 50%. My bars r hard but not so hard they dont bend when thin. I always wondered y this was when the hardness factor so high. Now I kno why. The actual hardness factor and saturation is somewhat lower.

Isn’t trans fat a saturated fat? If thats true the calcs are off by 16.6% when using SW. Now the question is how to adj the calc for 415? Put in both SW and SO? Ive got two bags of the stuff.

SW only requires 1.6% more sodium hydrox than SO. Superfat takes care of the diff which y r soaps r ok on that front. The diff is really in the properties and acids..esp lins. We don’t even kno if SW manufactures use HO SO or reg SO.

 

[Nanette]

It's higher in palmitic, plus it adds a bit more creaminess to the lather. And it is sooooo cheap!


The bars are lovely to use. You can even leave them soaking in their own water and they retain firmness without turning to sludge. Here's some pics:
View attachment 35191 View attachment 35192 View attachment 35193 View attachment 35194


You mean soy wax?

These soaps are just Beautiful, KiwiMoose--what a treat for the eyes!

 

[earlene]

This is interesting, Andrew.

So I wonder what calculation one could make to evaluate the actual results or if there is a an adjustment one could make in the a lye calculator to come up with an accurate account. Not that it alters the satisfaction those of us who are happy with soy wax in soap, but just out of interest. Any ideas?

Also, I have the same question as Dean, in this data sheet from the Golden site, which indicates high lins? Or is it the process of hydrogenation that produces high lins?

As I understand it both linoleic and lenolenic acids are polyunsaturated fats that contribute to the rich silky conditioning feel of soap. Although too high in soap, can lead to DOS, so a more accurate number would be nice, of course.

Incidentally, I see the Seydel Company lists a fully hydrogenated soy wax (Carowax HSO) but don't see it anywhere to purchase. So I suspect they have made it at some point. I wonder for what purpose, specifically. And even if it does compete with Palm, for the vegans out there, that is a good thing, except that for the most part, it's still made from mostly Genetically Modified soy beans, since there aren't many non-GM soy farmers around, in the US anyway. So maybe mute point if GMO is a concern.

An aside about soy beans. I have been eating soy beans since I was quite young and I am quite old now. The soy beans I buy today look very different from the soy beans I bought in my 20's. They are much, much smaller than they were when I bought them before GM soy beans became the norm. I just mention that because as a consumer of the bean, I have noticed the change over the years and it makes me wonder if the nutritional content of the soy bean has also changed with GMO. I know, that has nothing to do with making soap, but it's something I've noticed.

 

[Dean]

This is interesting, Andrew.

So I wonder what calculation one could make to evaluate the actual results or if there is a an adjustment one could make in the a lye calculator to come up with an accurate account. Not that it alters the satisfaction those of us who are happy with soy wax in soap, but just out of interest. Any ideas?

Also, I have the same question as Dean, in this data sheet from the Golden site, which indicates high lins? Or is it the process of hydrogenation that produces high lins?

As I understand it both linoleic and lenolenic acids are polyunsaturated fats that contribute to the rich silky conditioning feel of soap. Although too high in soap, can lead to DOS, so a more accurate number would be nice, of course.

Incidentally, I see the Seydel Company lists a fully hydrogenated soy wax (Carowax HSO) but don't see it anywhere to purchase. So I suspect they have made it at some point. I wonder for what purpose, specifically. And even if it does compete with Palm, for the vegans out there, that is a good thing, except that for the most part, it's still made from mostly Genetically Modified soy beans, since there aren't many non-GM soy farmers around, in the US anyway. So maybe mute point if GMO is a concern.

An aside about soy beans. I have been eating soy beans since I was quite young and I am quite old now. The soy beans I buy today look very different from the soy beans I bought in my 20's. They are much, much smaller than they were when I bought them before GM soy beans became the norm. I just mention that because as a consumer of the bean, I have noticed the change over the years and it makes me wonder if the nutritional content of the soy bean has also changed with GMO. I know, that has nothing to do with making soap, but it's something I've noticed.

I think andrew is getting the hi lins becuz SW is actually 16.6% SO which is high in lins.

I think I figured it out. SW% * .166 = SO%. SW% - SO% = adj SW%. Put SO% and adj SW% in calc to see recipies tru props and acids.

There is an about 5% diff in the hardness prop, which is what I expected. I knew it was off.

Before

After

My 40% SW recipie is actually 33 SW and 7 SO. Adjusting these numbers to get my desired calc props will be the tricky part. How do I increase (or decrease) the adj SW and SO so the ratio stays the same? Hopefully someone will help with that equation.

@Andrew deserves some sort of award for figuring this out.